Clarification on gen1 Taycans charging at 800v stations in US

[Murph7355]

A 150kW charger won't do 10%-80% in 20-25mins. Will be double that.

I don't use public chargers that often, but when I do I always make sure it's at 350kW chargers.

Charging at home, I would want as much capability as possible. Sure, I usually charge overnight...so 7kW is enough. But there are times when faster is handy. Still not a deal breaker, but more so than 150kW/400V.

Hadn't realised how poor the US charging network is.

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[Jonathan S.]

“My most common road trip is actually Tahoe about 5-6x a year.”

If you’re going to South Lake, being able to pull in the 130s instead of 50 at the Placerville Magic Docks would be a big plus. Especially since the In-N-Out is over a mile away, so you can’t get your food (“Those are good burgers Walter!”) while waiting for your car to charge at 50kW.

Alternatively, en route to North Lake are 16 Magic Docks in Roseville. And the In-N-Out is over a mile-and-a-half away.

Also remember that your range on the drive there will be considerably shorter. Even a net ascent of ~1,250’ to my Mt W NH ski house from Western Mass makes a big difference over a 2:50 drive. The ascent to Tahoe is quite a bit more than that! (My brother who lives in Sode Springs says he often sees abandoned Teslas on the drive there.)

“Ice grey (starting to rank as my # 1 preferred color after I've seen it in person)”

My used CT is that color. I would describe it as … white. Plus Ice Grey sounds a lot to me like Gray Ice, which in a ski mountaineering context is bad Bad BAD! That aside, it’s a pleasant yet somewhat neutral color.


“RAS”

The turning radius is amazing with this. By contrast, my A6ar has a turning radius as would be expected for its size, and my wife’s i4 is oddly long. I don’t do much city driving and parking, but whenever I’m in a mall or parking garage, the Taycan with RAS is wonderfully maneuverable.


“Also unknown is what is going on with Ionna. It appears other manufacturers are abandoning EA to VW?”

Going by the Ionna job listings earlier this year, long way to go until that network is much of anything.

I’m not sure what you mean by the second sentence? EA was originally 100% owned by VW, and now Siemens has a 9% stake. EA cut various free charging deals with VW competitors. The sooner those expire, the better! Almost everyone besides VW is a member of the Ionna JV, but how much they’re investing is entirely unknown.

 

[bn8959]

Car 2 is very similar to mine. I have a family too and I still love the GTS interior. RAS is brilliant as Jonathan S. says.

I do have the 150kW option but I appreciate there is a significant difference to the US charging situation. I don’t charge at DCFC much (maybe 10 times in 9 months) and I’ve only used a 400v charger once and even then there were 800v chargers at the same place (Tesla was just marginally cheaper and I wanted to see what speed I charged at - 135kW incidentally!).

 

[daveo4EV]

A 150kW charger won't do 10%-80% in 20-25mins. Will be double that.

I don't use public chargers that often, but when I do I always make sure it's at 350kW chargers.

Charging at home, I would want as much capability as possible. Sure, I usually charge overnight...so 7kW is enough. But there are times when faster is handy. Still not a deal breaker, but more so than 150kW/400V.

Hadn't realised how poor the US charging network is.

150 kW chargers add about 8-9 min total charge time vs. 270 kW - that's because you only get "above" 150 kW for n% to about 55% - the rest of the time is spent at 150 kW or less - so the 270 kW charge rate is only about 8-9 min faster according to math and real world experience…

this is because of the charge "taper curve" - it's closer to a triangle and not a flat line - so you start at 270 kW - and work your way down to below 50 kW once you're above 93% SOC - you cross over to 150 kW or below somewhere in the 50% SOC range on the taper curve…

so you only benefit from the "faster" charging of 270 kW for the beginning of your charging session - after 50% SOC a 150 kW charger is identical to a 350 kW charger in terms of speed because the battery can't take the higher charge rate at the higher SOC % state - and the vehicle's BMS throttles the charge rate down to maintain battery warranty longevity goals…

basically Taycan gen1 has 84.3 kWh of "usable battery" - split the charge session into 2 parts - the battery capacity from n% to 50% - and the charge session from 51% to n%

5% to 50% is 45% of 84.3 kWh - or about 38 kWh
51% to 95% is 45% - or the other 38 kWh

so 76 kWh is a normal road-trip fast charging session for the entire charge session from 5% to 95%

you can only get 270 kW charge rate for a maximum of 38 kWh worth of battery capacity
the remaining 38 kWh is 150 kW or less due to the battery charge taper…

• 38 kWh @ 270 kW = 8 minutes charge time (this is generous since you can not get 270 kW for the entire 38 kWh due to tapering)
• 38 kWh @ 150 kW = 15 minutes charge time

or 7 min difference for the 1st 38 kWh - after that the next 38 kWh is the SAME charge rate…because the battery can't handle a full charge rate for the 2nd 38 kWh of capacity…

so a 350/270 kW charger is faster than 150 kW for the first 1/2 of the charge session
but a 350/270 kW is NO faster for the 2nd half of a charge session due to battery charge rate taper requirements…

the difference between charging a Taycan from 5% to 90% at a 350 kW charger vs. a 150 kW charger is 8-9 minutes or less - guessing it takes ~ 28 min to get to 90% on a 350 kW charger, that means it would take 36 minutes on a 150 kW charger - not double the time - but an increase of about (8/28) of 28% slower for a 150 kW charge session - and that's only true if you're starting way below 30% SOC - the 350/270 kW charger's advantage is even less the closer you're starting to 50% SOC…so 8-9 minutes is the MAXIMUM advantage vs. 150 kW - the 8-9 min advantage is significantly smaller if you start charging at say 32% SOC - since by the time you're at 50% SOC you're below 150 kW anyways…

give me a good solid reliable 150 kW charge rate and the actual real world stop time from 5% to 95% is inconsequential vs. the "overhead" of the stop and the likely activities I'll engage in while the vehicle is charging…

Taycan GEN2 is a whole new ball game - and I can't wait to see what it can do in the real world - early data points to 200 kW or greater charge rate well into the 60% SOC territory - this is likely to make the advantage vs. 150 kW much close to 50% - may 60% faster - we'll have see how it works in practice and do the math…

but a 150 kW charger is not 2 times slower than a 350 kW charger given the realities of battery taper curves…and honestly most 350 kW can. only maintain that output rate for a small time (local battery storage buffer) and once they exhaust their "boost buffer" they can no longer provide "max output" - but that's ok - because most vehicle's can't take "max output" so your site's "boost buffer" only has to be more kWh's than most EV's can take at that rate ;-)

 

[Flying ace]

“My most common road trip is actually Tahoe about 5-6x a year.”

If you’re going to South Lake, being able to pull in the 130s instead of 50 at the Placerville Magic Docks would be a big plus. Especially since the In-N-Out is over a mile away, so you can’t get your food (“Those are good burgers Walter!”) while waiting for your car to charge at 50kW.

Alternatively, en route to North Lake are 16 Magic Docks in Roseville. And the In-N-Out is over a mile-and-a-half away.

Also remember that your range on the drive there will be considerably shorter. Even a net ascent of ~1,250’ to my Mt W NH ski house from Western Mass makes a big difference over a 2:50 drive. The ascent to Tahoe is quite a bit more than that! (My brother who lives in Sode Springs says he often sees abandoned Teslas on the drive there.)

“Ice grey (starting to rank as my # 1 preferred color after I've seen it in person)”

My used CT is that color. I would describe it as … white. Plus Ice Grey sounds a lot to me like Gray Ice, which in a ski mountaineering context is bad Bad BAD! That aside, it’s a pleasant yet somewhat neutral color.


“RAS”

The turning radius is amazing with this. By contrast, my A6ar has a turning radius as would be expected for its size, and my wife’s i4 is oddly long. I don’t do much city driving and parking, but whenever I’m in a mall or parking garage, the Taycan with RAS is wonderfully maneuverable.


“Also unknown is what is going on with Ionna. It appears other manufacturers are abandoning EA to VW?”

Going by the Ionna job listings earlier this year, long way to go until that network is much of anything.

I’m not sure what you mean by the second sentence? EA was originally 100% owned by VW, and now Siemens has a 9% stake. EA cut various free charging deals with VW competitors. The sooner those expire, the better! Almost everyone besides VW is a member of the Ionna JV, but how much they’re investing is entirely unknown.

Mostly North Tahoe. Planned stops would be in EA in Roseville, Rocklin or Auburn. All have pretty good uptimes. Preference would be Auburn to maximize SoC after the climb.


Regarding Ionna, I think I understand the business. Basically, VW competitors are electing for their own consortium. There are inferences that infrastructure will be built similar to Ionity. I see what you're saying. The sooner non VW is incentivized to leave EA, the better for EA. Looks like Ionna is years away from anything that resembles a charging network, and given the plan to just do one install this year!

At this point of my thoughts, I'm leaning towards taking a chance and bypassing the 150/400

 

[feye]

You are substantially correct. All Electrify America DC fast chargers run at 800V

Technically, that's not really how chargers work. They have an upper limit in terms of Voltage, Ampere and therefore Watts, they can deliver. The car communicates, what it wants to draw from the charger, and the charger delivers it. Same principle is used for USB C.

For instance the ABB charger used by Electrify America takes either 480V (or 277V only USA?) in 3 phases in AC alternating current from the grid. This is then converted to DC for CCS1. For a single CCS1 DC output it can deliver anything between 150V to 920V with a maximum current of 350A. The specification of the car is irrelevant because the charger simply delivers what (V and A) the car requests in any given moment.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Last week I stopped by the 100kW EVgo station next to my house.
(On my bike. I've never charged there b/c ... it's only a few block from my house.)

Going by a PlugShare picture, these chargers were upgraded in June 2022.
I'm not sure how to interpret the voltage range on the plate?

(At first I thought that the Ioniq 5 maxing out the charger meant that it was 800v, but then I read that E-GMP vehicles have been hitting that at Magic Docks. At first they were mired in the 40s, like a Taycan w/o the 150/400 option, but somehow that changed recently.)

The most curious aspect of these chargers (aside from their nonsensical location, so close to the interstate corridor yet too far to attract roadtripping drivers) is the Tesla plug.
If my interpretation of the PlugShare picture is correct, this station was upgraded to these chargers years after Tesla vehicles gained CCS1 communication protocols and hence could charge at any CCS1 chargers via BYOA (Bring Your Own Adapter).

Given that the charging speed with the integrated Tesla plug is half that via BYOA, what's the point?

Unless perhaps EVgo had already produced a bit inventory of this charger model before Tesla started supporting CCS1 communication protocols?
Although given that Tesla has a dozen 150kW chargers more sensibly located ~4.4mi to the west, adjacent to the interstate exit, even for an old Tesla, this station has limited appeal.

 

[Jonathan S.]

And here is a 180kW charger at one of only eight stations in the entire nation funded by the 2021 infrastructure bill.

The location for this station is also so wonderfully messed up ... unless the criteria were focused solely on my needs!
Which means the only decent CCS1 station in all of VT and NH is exactly where I would put it if I cared about only me Me ME.

Across all of Vermont, if you had to pick a location optimized for my needs, you would choose Bradford VT:

• Any further north along I-91, and my itinerary means I sometimes need to leave the highway on my way to my Mt Washington house.
• Any further south, and I would face far more competition from other EV drivers, especially were it located at the junction of I-91 and I-89 (thereby available to Boston drivers headed to Killington and further north) or any further south (thereby available to NYC & CT drivers heading to pretty much anywhere in VT except the Northern Kingdom).

Even better is that just in case somehow these four chargers were ever full (or, more likely, say one or two broken and two or three in use), the four NEVI-funded chargers were built at the same location as two state-funded chargers.
(The only way to tell them apart is via the "these two/four are not like the others game" as they have no speed ratings.)
These chargers are part of a state network of 17 stations with two 50kW chargers each. Started being built last year (2023) with funding approved in 2019 and 2020.
Which means this network is nearly worthless, with those two chargers there as back-up, this station is perfect!
(Amenities seem to include some nearby restaurants, but more importantly lots of immediately adjacent forest to use as a somewhat discreet men's restroom.)

 

[julianm]

Thanks for all your citizen science in this thread @Jonathan S. !

I did end up choosing an on-lot 2024 Taycan CT that does not have the 150 kW / 400v option specced. It was hard to choose that over a variety of other performance options I wanted. (Haven’t taken delivery just yet.)

As I screenshotted earlier, I’m not particularly reliant on future-Tesla availability, just hoping all these non-EA DCFC turn out to be capable of more than 400v. Sounds like it might not be so bad.

Still, not looking forward to the day Tesla starts opening up and there are a lot of sad older Taycans around.

 

[Flying ace]

So for the DCFC hardware that has a wide range of voltage 200-900, if it is currently set for 400v (and at say 150kw), does the Taycan (without the 400v) booster charge at 50kw or at the max 150kw?

 

[daveo4EV]

So for the DCFC hardware that has a wide range of voltage 200-900, if it is currently set for 400v (and at say 150kw), does the Taycan (without the 400v) booster charge at 50kw or at the max 150kw?

it a depends on what the car and station negotiate - maybe is the answer - if car and station negotiate 400v you will be limited to 50 kw - if they negotiate 800v you’ll get max power for current conditions

this is why this option was a terrible choice to put in the hands of consumers - all the factors involved are out of the vehicle drivers control and mostly hidden from views

i had my gen 1 taycan at an 800v station and got a 400v charging session - no idea why even after emailing station. customer support

you should get a 800v session - will you always? based on actual experience with my 2020 Taycan Turbo - i sometimes would get 400v sessions at 800v stations

for me this only happened at non-EA stations - but it did happen

YMMV

 

[Flying ace]

it a depends on what the car and station negotiate - maybe is the answer - if car and station negotiate 400v you will be limited to 50 kw - if they negotiate 800v you’ll get max power for current conditions

this is why this option was a terrible choice to put in the hands of consumers - all the factors involved are out of the vehicle drivers control and mostly hidden from views

i had my gen 1 taycan at an 800v station and got a 400v charging session - no idea why even after emailing station. customer support

you should get a 800v session - will you always? based on actual experience with my 2020 Taycan Turbo - i sometimes would get 400v sessions at 800v stations

for me this only happened at non-EA stations - but it did happen

YMMV

Ah, thanks for the clarification. That is indeed very ymmv.

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