Think about buying a Porsche taycan for a daily driver

[Gkwan]

Why exactly? My 2020 Turbo S has been faultless

Same here with my "old-new" 2020 Turbo, only been a few days but I chose carefully (lots of info) so I have a good feeling it won't generate issues

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[Gkwan]

No visible differences but some tech enhancements (PCM) plus early cars were more problematic.

2021 onwards should be fine and if sourced from OPC as it will have all recall and campaign work completed.

Get an HV battery state of health (SoH) report to check degradation. Range is weak on Gen 1 (J1.1) cars and further impaired if the SoH is low.

Service every 2 years (20K miles) £750.

Tyres should last 15K - 20K if driven sensibly.

Extend the warranty as it expires to avoid high cost repairs.

All Taycans 2020-2024 can, and should, have the same level of PCM software (v3885 I think), a 2020 / 2021 models won't have more or less problems statistically.

 

[d00d]

The early 2020 is NMC712, where the late 2020 and up is NMC622.
Because the former is two generations out of date, apparently the fix for an individual battery fault is to replace the whole pack with the current J1.2 NMC811, so advantage to the early 2020.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...be-a-new-or-rebuilt-battery.23355/post-358656

 

[prj]

Yeah, you can't really mix and match modules of different chemistries in one battery to great effect, and they're apparently out of 2020 modules and 2021-2024 batteries, so for a 2020 if you have any cell fault within the factory warranty, you will get a whole new battery.

However, this also means that after the 8 year warranty is up, unless you can find a third party repair shop to put a used module in, you're looking at a repair bill that is more than the price of the car.

 

[d00d]

Know what the cost of the J1.2 battery pack is?
I found $28K, but also needs some front suspension components $?K, and apparently takes a week of labor which is maybe another $10K, assuming $250/hour.

 

[Vincent_Frederick]

It in fact does NOT cover the battery.
The terms and conditions on Porsche Approved in Europe EXPLICITLY state that aging defects are not covered for Battery and High Voltage Battery.
And when you scan a 2020-2024 battery pack with a bad module PIWIS says that the module has an "aging" fault.

So if a module fails when it's out of the 8 year window Porsche Approved will in fact NOT help you.

Gpt said

No — it’s not correct to say Porsche Approved “never covers” the high-voltage battery. Claims due to battery failure from manufacturing defects can still be covered. It’s just that normal loss of capacity with age is not.

From the Porsche website in spanish, says It covers HVB, same as gpt said, no normal capacity loss.

 

[Sace]

It in fact does NOT cover the battery.
The terms and conditions on Porsche Approved in Europe EXPLICITLY state that aging defects are not covered for Battery and High Voltage Battery.
And when you scan a 2020-2024 battery pack with a bad module PIWIS says that the module has an "aging" fault.

So if a module fails when it's out of the 8 year window Porsche Approved will in fact NOT help you.

Might come down to local legislation, but where I live a bad module that makes the car unable to drive can never be categorized as "wear" or aging.

Local dealers have confirmed that the battery failures are covered by PA - But to be fair I have never heard of a case as quite few cars have passed the 160kkm mark yet (and obviously none have passed 8 years). I did see a 21 Taycan with 190kkm on the original battery for sale a while back though.

 

[Fish Fingers]

I wonder whether used EV prices have bottomed out. The stats (UK) certainly suggest so.....
https://www.smmt.co.uk/used-ev-market-enjoys-record-uptake-as-one-in-25-buyers-switch-over-summer/

In my view, all we need is a spike in the price of oil and I can see people regretting not buying one in 2025 when prices hit rock bottom.

The whole EV depreciation doesn't really make much sense if you think about it. Great cars, cheap to run.....but people have been scared off by the pro oil propaganda.

Those who have them tend to like them and stick with them.

I personally think the tide is turning, so the OP may just be thinking of buying at a good time?

 

[prj]

Gpt said

No — it’s not correct to say Porsche Approved “never covers” the high-voltage battery. Claims due to battery failure from manufacturing defects can still be covered. It’s just that normal loss of capacity with age is not.

From the Porsche website in spanish, says It covers HVB, same as gpt said, no normal capacity loss.

Yes, if there is water ingress or some other total failure it will cover it.
But the specific problem that is affecting every 2020-2024 Taycan right now where individual modules fail is defined by PIWIS as "Module Aging Detected". There is a specific clause which says that it does NOT cover "Aging Defects" for HVB, Batteries, Suspension components, Brakes and a few other things.

So yes, the <1% rare issues it might cover, but not the issue that constitutes 99% of the battery failures.

Also good luck with GPT in court.

Might come down to local legislation, but where I live a bad module that makes the car unable to drive can never be categorized as "wear" or aging.

Local dealers have confirmed that the battery failures are covered by PA - But to be fair I have never heard of a case as quite few cars have passed the 160kkm mark yet (and obviously none have passed 8 years). I did see a 21 Taycan with 190kkm on the original battery for sale a while back though.

No it does not come down to local legislation. The Porsche Approved is not a warranty, it is an insurance contract, I recommend reading the whole thing, it is very clever the way it is worded.
There is a reason they categorized the module faults as "aging faults". And since the official diagnostic tool says "Module Aging", then you're going to have to prove in court somehow that it is in fact not normal aging. Good luck with that.

We shall see how it is enforced in the future, it will be relevant in 2 years when the first Taycans come out of battery warranty. The 190 000km is irrelevant because you can't extend Porsche Approved at that mileage.

 

[chun]

Yes, if there is water ingress or some other total failure it will cover it.
But the specific problem that is affecting every 2020-2024 Taycan right now where individual modules fail is defined by PIWIS as "Module Aging Detected". There is a specific clause which says that it does NOT cover "Aging Defects" for HVB, Batteries, Suspension components, Brakes and a few other things.

So yes, the <1% rare issues it might cover, but not the issue that constitutes 99% of the battery failures.



No it does not come down to local legislation. The Porsche Approved is not a warranty, it is an insurance contract, I recommend reading the whole thing, it is very clever the way it is worded.
There is a reason they categorized the module faults as "aging faults". And since the official diagnostic tool says "Module Aging", then you're going to have to prove in court somehow that it is in fact not normal aging. Good luck with that.

We shall see how it is enforced in the future, it will be relevant in 2 years when the first Taycans come out of battery warranty. The 190 000km is irrelevant because you can't extend Porsche Approved at that mileage.

I will likely be one of the first people going through that Can't wait.

Still boggles my mind how governments allowed Porsche to fix a hardware manufacturing defect recall with a software notification that simply marks the battery as "aged" when it detects the hardware manufacturing defect - therefore not covered by "warranty". Just as insane that people ate it up no questions asked.

Proves that as long as you're in bed with VW, which knows in which pockets to put money, laws are non-enforceable

I do think if this ever makes it to court, a class action lawsuit has very strong chances to win. This hardware manufacturing defect was across all cells produced by LG before Q3 of 2024, and was discovered by other car brands also, which forced LG Chem in court to replace all the hardware on their dime - Porsche chose to not do that - so there is already "proof" that the true solution would have been a replacement.

The NHTSA review affects 138,324 vehicles, according to a report by Reuters news agency. The auto safety agency will contact LG and “other companies that may have purchased the same or similar devices from LG,” it said.

At LG Energy Solution, the NHTSA request is understood to be a follow-up, according to a spokesperson. The company said it would “fully cooperate” in the endeavour, according to Reuters.

In addition to LG Energy Solution, several automakers are also coming under scrutiny: the agency found that Mercedes-Benz, Chrysler parent Stellantis, General Motors and Hyundai Motor have issued recalls since 2020 for internal defects in high-voltage batteries for vehicles that pose a fire risk.

[...]

The recalls at GM for its Chevrolet Bolt EV prompted the US manufacturer to halt sales and production of new models in August. In September last year, the company declared the Chevrolet Bolt’s battery problems fixed.

The following October, General Motors said it had reached an agreement with LG for billions in compensation. In the third quarter, GM will report a special gain of $1.9 billion (1.6 billion euros), it said. This almost makes up for the roughly two billion dollars in expenses for the recalls.

Every other company got paid out by LG, beside the VW group - and replaced the hardware. So who knows how shit their contract was with LG, for them to not have a case against LG...

 

[prj]

I will likely be one of the first people going through that Can't wait.

Still boggles my mind how governments allowed Porsche to fix a hardware manufacturing defect recall with a software notification that simply marks the battery as "aged" when it detects the hardware manufacturing defect - therefore not covered by "warranty". Just as insane that people ate it up no questions asked.

They do fix those during the battery warranty. The thing is Porsche Approved is not a warranty, it's an insurance policy.
In case of an insurance policy they can specify exactly which risks they insure and which they don't, it's not against the law.
E.g. rattles covered under warranty but not under Porsche Approved and so on.

Every other company got paid out by LG, beside the VW group - and replaced the hardware. So who knows how shit their contract was with LG, for them to not have a case against LG...

That's what you are assuming, however knowing some other contracts then LG is likely paying for all the modules, because VW supplier contracts usually offload the warranty on the supplier.

Meaning VW did not have to sue because the contract already covered this, whereas others had to, since they did not have that clause in the contract and they had to sue to prove that the module functionality was not as described.

 

[chun]

They do fix those during the battery warranty. The thing is Porsche Approved is not a warranty, it's an insurance policy.
In case of an insurance policy they can specify exactly which risks they insure and which they don't, it's not against the law.
E.g. rattles covered under warranty but not under Porsche Approved and so on.


That's what you are assuming, however knowing some other contracts then LG is likely paying for all the modules, because VW supplier contracts usually offload the warranty on the supplier.

Meaning VW did not have to sue because the contract already covered this, whereas others had to, since they did not have that clause in the contract and they had to sue to prove that the module functionality was not as described.

Yes, that's why it wrote it as "warranty", in quotes - since the approved doesn't cover it.

Yes, could be that LG is paying for those replaced modules within the 8 years of warranty. They should be paying for the replacement for defective module for the lifetime of the battery/car, as it is a manufacturing defect. The fact that it is not stated clearly what happens when the manufacturing defect is detected after the 8 years of warranty, makes be believe that we're left to pay out of pocket, which should be illegal.

I would have preferred much more if Porsche/VW handled the situation like all other manufacturers, and simply replaced the hardware straight away, for everyone, before any defects actually occur. Not sure why Porsche/VW assumed owners would love living with the stress of this happening at any time, especially post warranty .

And the fact that they didn't do what other manufactures did, which would be a massive PR win, and great customer satisfaction, and strengthening of belief in the Porsche brand, makes be believe that it is actually Porsche paying for the module replacements within the 8 warranty, and not LG - why not replace everything if it's on LGs dime and get massive wins?

Of course, everything is assumptions based on my observations.
But it would make no sense to have the PR nightmare of fires in the newspapers, by waiting for defects to happen, while LG pays for module replacements - instead of replacing them all at once, since its LGs dime. The only way it make sense is if it's not LGs dime, at least to me.

 

[kern417]

One thing online forums and dealers have in common: You'll always hear when someone has a problem. You'll rarely hear when someone has none.

I recommend only using the feedback here as points of reference so you know what to keep an eye on and you can solve problems if they happen to you. It shouldn't be used as a metric to determine reliability rates.

 

[prj]

Yes, that's why it wrote it as "warranty", in quotes - since the approved doesn't cover it.

Yes, could be that LG is paying for those replaced modules within the 8 years of warranty. They should be paying for the replacement for defective module for the lifetime of the battery/car, as it is a manufacturing defect. The fact that it is not stated clearly what happens when the manufacturing defect is detected after the 8 years of warranty, makes be believe that we're left to pay out of pocket, which should be illegal.

Well, yes and no, in the end the manufacturer is obligated to make sure the car works for 8 years. What happens after is not really their problem.
EU still has consumer rights for privately owned vehicles. If a part is replaced with a new one then for two years you have the right to lodge a complaint and if it fails in the first year, it is assumed that the defect was present in the new part.
However, most cars are financed, so are owned by the finance company, throwing this out the window.

I would have preferred much more if Porsche/VW handled the situation like all other manufacturers, and simply replaced the hardware straight away, for everyone, before any defects actually occur. Not sure why Porsche/VW assumed owners would love living with the stress of this happening at any time, especially post warranty .

Porsche sales in EU down 16.4% YoY.
Porsche sales in China down 26% YoY.
Porsche talking about letting go 1/4 of workforce in Germany and relocating to cheaper countries.
Porsche shutting down charging network of 200 chargers in China from 1. March 2026.
Porsche closing over half of their dealerships in China.
Porsche firing their CEO.

Shall I continue? There is more...

The markets that are most EV heavy have the highest sales drop. Meanwhile from 2026 Porsche is retiring the ICE Macan with no replacement and the 718 with no replacement. What do you think happens in 2026?
The BMW Neue Klasse iX3 obliterates the Macan in nearly every metric while being cheaper - what do you think will happen with the Macan sales in EU?
What happens to the Taycan when the AMG.EA is released next year?

I may have been holding a significant short position on $P911 (6 digits), which is very much in the green by now, and I expect the trend to continue. NFA.

If they don't turn the ship around there might be no one to do the warranty in 8 years. I still love their cars, but they've lost the plot.
Who needs 200k EUR EV's? Almost nobody. The market is tiny. People who buy those usually don't give a damn about fuel costs because they have so much money it's just irrelevant. They couldn't compete on the tech because of the whole cariad debacle.
That's why the pivot back into ICE, but at what cost?

And the fact that they didn't do what other manufactures did, which would be a massive PR win, and great customer satisfaction, and strengthening of belief in the Porsche brand, makes be believe that it is actually Porsche paying for the module replacements within the 8 warranty, and not LG - why not replace everything if it's on LGs dime and get massive wins?

I wonder if it could be because for the other manufacturers LG supplied the whole pack whereas in case of Porsche they only supplied the modules and then Porsche built the batteries themselves.

I'm sure Porsche is not directly footing the bill for the faulty modules themselves though. VWAG simply does not make such contracts. Same case for e.g. heaters or 22kW chargers.

Of course indirectly they are very much footing the bill. The sales are going to shit and Taycan has a super bad rep due to all this.

 

[Rusty Griswald]

my 2020 turbo has been really solid overall

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