A Taycan 4S is only as good as its charging infrastructure, & it isn't good!

[Damond]

Here's the results of driving a 2021 Taycan 4S with the 21" Mission e wheels and the 93.4 kWh Performance Plus Battery (83.7 kWh usable) here in the desert Southwest when it is 105-115F on I-8 and I-10 west of Tucson and Phoenix.

This is both a driving range and charging infrastructure story. Both are critical to "enjoying" driving long distances in a Taycan 4S here in the desert Southwest.

During the week of 19 July through 26 July, I and a fellow Porsche Club of America - Southern Arizona Region (PCA-SAR) made 9 preplanned documented charging-station to charging-station test trips. We charged/attempted to charge 18 times. Thirteen of these charging/charging attempts were made at Public Charging Network (PCN) chargers. Five of the chargings were made using a Porsche Mobile Charger Connect (PMCC) hooked up to a 240 VAC 14-50 receptacle protected by a dual pole 50 amp breaker. This was done while the Taycan 4S was parked in a single car garage located in Tucson Arizona.

Our test trips included driving on I-8 and I-10 at 75-84 mph. They were from Marana AZ to Dateland AZ & back (331 miles roundtrip), and from Marana AZ to Quartzite AZ/Blythe CA (531 miles roundtrip). Ambient temperatures ranged from 105F to 115F. Air Conditioning was set to automatic and 74F. Regen off - there were no significant up & downhills in each trip; i.e., relatively flat between charging stations. All but one test trip was done in Normal drive mode.

We recorded the kWh/100 miles and SOC% along with the battery and ambient temperatures during the test trips. When charging we recorded the starting & finishing SOC%, starting charging rates, charging time, and kWh charged . Here's the summary of the results:

Ranges based on the average kWh/100 miles between 39-41.[calculated and read from the Tube 3 Trip data screens]:
100% SOC down to 10% SOC-193 to 184 miles, and 85% SOC down to 10% SOC - 161-153 miles. The two ranges represented what one would normally drive when charging at home using the PMCC to 100% SOC, and 85% SOC when charging at a PCN charger. We charged/attempted to charge 10 times at Electrify America (EA) chargers, 2 times at ChargePoint chargers, and once at a EVgo charger.

NOTE: When driving, at 15% SOC the yellow range warning comes on and the gas pump symbol turns yellow. As one gets below 10% SOC, the gas pump symbol turns red. A 10% SOC leaves between 20 & 30 miles before the car stops dead. This reserve depends on your kWh/100 miles burn rate when driving the last 10%; i.e., how fast you drive and other burn rate factors. (we didn't try this!). Taycan also likes to start shutting down things when the SOC% goes below 10%; like the A/C.

Charging Infrastructure:
Electrify America (EA) is the only game in town If one wants to drive a Taycan 4S from Tucson or Phoenix AZ to either San Diego via I-8 & Dateland, Los Angeles via I-10 & Quartzite; and even the only route to Las Vegas via Quartzite, and Needles via I-10/AZ95/US95/I-11.

Both Quartzite and Dateland are 100 miles & 113 miles, respectively from the nearest EA 4 charger stations. These are the EA charging stations at Casa Grande for Dateland, and Buckeye AZ for Quartzite. They all have only 2 ea 150 kW and 2 ea 350 kW chargers. If none of the chargers work at Dateland, and given the less than 200 mile range of the Taycan 4S, it is not possible to drive back to the charging station at Casa Grande, nor make it safely & comfortably the 66 miles to the next EA charging station in Yuma. Twice in a 3 week period, all the EA chargers at Dateland were reported by the EA iPhone app as being "unavailable".

Quartzite is close to being in the same situation, except there are 2 ea 50 kW chargers in Blythe CA, 22 miles west of Quartzite on I-10. We know because despite checking 3 times on the EA iPhone app the status of chargers at Quartzite, we arrived and tried to use all 4 chargers with all 4 chargers failing to even start. Each announced that they had a Charger Error. We were actually on the phone with EA Support when the 4th charger failed. We had to report to the Support person what the error codes were!

We ended up in Blythe CA using the both 50 kW ChargePoint chargers. One quit after charging 21 minutes! We used the second one for 25 minutes, and decided to head back to Buckeye with a 61%SOC.

We drove back to Buckeye from Blythe using Range drive mode and at 65 mph to make sure we could make it on a 61% SOC. Not fun on 75 mph speed limit I-10 and its truck traffic. We did so with the A/C at 78F and ECO! Arrived with a 17% SOC.

Additionally, 4 times when charging at EA 350 kW chargers, we got less than the full starting charging rate expected when the starting SOC was 30-35%. We got 67-80 kW on the 350 kWs. On a EA 150 kW charger we got only 17 kW. Clearly not what it should have been.

Five of the successful chargings were done when the temperatures were above 100F. The charging at Dateland was done when it was 108F. Charging stations at Dateland, Buckeye, and Quartzite had all experienced temperatures of 115F during the week we did the tests.

None of the chargers used were covered.

Findings & Conclusions:

Range: When it is as hot as it gets here in the desert southwest, a Taycan 4S can't be depended on to make even 200 miles on a 100% SOC down to a 10% SOC charge It definitely can't make even 165 miles on a 85% SOC down to a 10% SOC charge. That's when driving 75-85 mph on 75 mph speed limit interstates, and its 105-115F here in the desert Southwest between mid-June and mid-September! Given these driving ranges no one should attempt to drive charging station to charging station legs of more than 180 miles even when starting out with a 100% SOC.

Charging Infrastructure: The current locations of EA charging stations, and the UNreliability of the EA chargers themselves are woefully inadequate to support long distance driving a Taycan 4S from Tucson/Phoenix to San Diego, Los Angeles, and Las Vegas. Note: One cannot drive from Tucson/Phoenix to Las Vegas via the shorter Wickenburg-Kingman route because the leg from Phoenix to Kingman is 203 miles. EA has no charging stations in Wickenburg. In fact no one except Tesla has charging stations in Wickenburg.

Conclusion. Because of the distance between human civilization along I-8 and I-10 west of Tucson/Phoenix, it will be difficult to increase the number of charging station locations. Increasing the reliability of the existing chargers and/or increasing the number of chargers per location is the only way to improve the charging infrastructure.

The quickest way to do this is for non-Tesla EVs to be able to use Tesla Superchargers. Something that Elon Musk seems willing to do according to the mid-August episode of Motorweek. There are 7-10 Superchargers at the numerous locations along I-8 and I-10 west of Tucson and Phoenix. There's even a Tesla Supercharger location in Wickenburg. This makes it possible to drive from Tucson/Phoenix to Las Vegas along the 410 mile short route

Bottom Line: A Taycan 4S is only as good as its charging infrastructure, And currently that charging infrastructure is not good enough for Taycans or any EVs with less than a 200 mile driving range and when driven here in the desert Southwest during the summertime heat!

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[kort]

you've posted in two sub forums so I'll respond in both because I wholeheartedly agree with your remarks and they need to amplified as much as possible

I snipped what I am not commenting on

Damond said:
Ranges based on the average kWh/100 miles between 39-41.[calculated and read from the Tube 3 Trip data screens]:
100% SOC down to 10% SOC-193 to 184 miles, and 85% SOC down to 10% SOC - 161-153 miles. The two ranges represented what one would normally drive when charging at home using the PMCC to 100% SOC, and 85% SOC when charging at a PCN charger. We charged/attempted to charge 10 times at Electrify America (EA) chargers, 2 times at ChargePoint chargers, and once at a EVgo charger.

I have done a bit better on my similar trips ,up to 220 or so from 100% soc

Damond said:
Additionally, 4 times when charging at EA 350 kW chargers, we got less than the full starting charging rate expected when the starting SOC was 30-35%. We got 67-80 kW on the 350 kWs. On a EA 150 kW charger we got only 17 kW. Clearly not what it should have been.

what you've encountered is more the norm than not, I can count on my hands the times that I've gotten anything close to 200 on a 35kw unit and a few times I've been up to 120+ on a 150 unit. I had 150 unit deliver about 26kw until it crapped out and I moved to an adjacent unit.

Damond said:
The quickest way to do this is for non-Tesla EVs to be able to use Tesla Superchargers. Something that Elon Musk seems willing to do according to the mid-August episode of Motorweek. There are 7-10 Superchargers at the numerous locations along I-8 and I-10 west of Tucson and Phoenix. There's even a Tesla Supercharger location in Wickenburg. This makes it possible to drive from Tucson/Phoenix to Las Vegas along the 410 mile short route

I really wouldn't get overly excited about this "elonism" while opening up his network in europe is easy to do here in the US it would involve either creating adaptors or massive hardware changes. it probably is not financially viable to retrofit the superchargers and adaptors would be the only possible way.

Damond said:
Bottom Line: A Taycan 4S is only as good as its charging infrastructure, And currently that charging infrastructure is not good enough for Taycans or any EVs with less than a 200 mile driving range and when driven here in the desert Southwest during the summertime heat!

exactomundo.
if I cannot depend on being able to get a reliable charge while on long distance trips the car's viability is severely diminished. If I wanted an EV to just get me around town there are far less costly EVs available.
porsche is really tarnishing their brand with the software flubs and the unreliability of the charging.

 

[Damond]

you've posted in two sub forums so I'll respond in both because I wholeheartedly agree with your remarks and they need to amplified as much as possible

I snipped what I am not commenting on


I have done a bit better on my similar trips ,up to 220 or so from 100% soc


what you've encountered is more the norm than not, I can count on my hands the times that I've gotten anything close to 200 on a 35kw unit and a few times I've been up to 120+ on a 150 unit. I had 150 unit deliver about 26kw until it crapped out and I moved to an adjacent unit.


I really wouldn't get overly excited about this "elonism" while opening up his network in europe is easy to do here in the US it would involve either creating adaptors or massive hardware changes. it probably is not financially viable to retrofit the superchargers and adaptors would be the only possible way.


exactomundo.
if I cannot depend on being able to get a reliable charge while on long distance trips the car's viability is severely diminished. If I wanted an EV to just get me around town there are far less costly EVs available.
porsche is really tarnishing their brand with the software flubs and the unreliability of the charging.

Kort,
I see by your zip code you are from the east coast of Florida. So I would not be surprised by your getting 220 on a 100% SOC.

And yes I actually put my story in three threads. The ColoradoKid said I should try to put it into something other than the EA response to the "sucks" comments in PlugShare. So I created this thread and put something in the Edmunds mileage one.

Question: Did you ever look at the kWh/100 miles readings shown in the Tube 3, Trip, screens? If so, what is the highest reading you have seen? We actually hit high 41's while driving in the 115F temperatures at 84 mph (under the get a ticket for speeding limit) as we headed toward Quartzite. There is a rise in elevation so we attributed the highest kWh/100 figure to the rise in elevation. I suspect that along the east coast of FL you are fairly flat.

I didn't mention it in my replies/thread but I suspect that Musk will ask for some of the Infrastructure Bill $$$ to do the software & maybe hardware conversions necessary for non-Tesla EVs to use the Superchargers.

From talking to Tesla users, the Superchargers read the VIN before starting to charge. Tesla owners are required to have an account (with valid credit card) in order to use the Superchargers. All they do is plug the Supercharger into their Teslas and after syncing up, it starts charging. So there will be some way that non-Tesla EV users establish an account with Tesla in order to automatically or semi-automatically charge the car and charge the credit card. I suspect something similar to what I have with Electrify America, ChargePoint, EVgo, and EVconnect will work. Now as to the adapters necessary to use the Superchargers, there are already adapters that allow non-Teslas to use what are called "destination" chargers. They are mostly 6-8 kW chargers installed and owned by hotels and resorts. I figure that us non-Tesla EV users of the Superchargers will initially have to buy Tesla to CCS adapters for $150-$300. Since Superchargers have only 1 plug, I don't see Tesla taking any of their chargers and converting their plugs to CCS ones.

As you pointed out, I don't see Musk doing anything out of the goodness of his heart. One might think that he knew that this situation would arise because none of the EV manufacturers thought about the charging infrastructure as something they needed to invest in the minute they thought about making an EV. I think they thought "If I build it they will come!"

BTW. If you can get a copy of the July/August edition of Car & Driver, the whole edition is about EVs and their selection of the best EV...the Ford Mustang Mach-E. It has some great articles, one of which is "The EV 1000". They take all the candidates for the best EV, and have their staffs drive them for 1000 miles around the midwest in a competition of who can drive it the fastest. Kinda an EV equivalent to their "Cannonball Baker, Sea to Shining Sea" runs...but I date myself.

Take care and stay safe.
Damond

 

[riburn3]

I really wouldn't get overly excited about this "elonism" while opening up his network in europe is easy to do here in the US it would involve either creating adaptors or massive hardware changes. it probably is not financially viable to retrofit the superchargers and adaptors would be the only possible way.

I'm skeptical as well, but I would imagine he will pass the cost onto prospective users and not overhaul his entire charging network if it's possible. Tesla will either sell an adaptor of their own, or verified 3rd parties will, similar to the Teslatap. I imagine in the beginning, they will be of limited supply. I also would imagine non-Tesla cars will be charged a significant premium to use the chargers.

 

[fullmetalbaal]

I'm skeptical as well, but I would imagine he will pass the cost onto prospective users and not overhaul his entire charging network if it's possible. Tesla will either sell an adaptor of their own, or verified 3rd parties will, similar to the Teslatap. I imagine in the beginning, they will be of limited supply. I also would imagine non-Tesla cars will be charged a significant premium to use the chargers.

I think it's fine if non-Tesla cars are charged a premium. (both as Tesla driver and as a Taycan driver). Their network. Their rules. On the other hand, non-Tesla drivers can prioritize EA/EvGO and fall back to Tesla when those invariably fail. That kind of "insurance" won't be needed often, and when it happens IMHO it's totally fine if it's at a premium.

I would take paying a 30-50% premium over being stuck on some 25kw or 50kw charger in the middle of nowhere or driving a massive detour.

It's also no different from what Ionity and others do (though they hide it in subscription pricing).

 

[atebit]

So one thing I wonder about these charging performance issues is the underlying electrical infrastructure. While the charging station hardware may be capable of supplying say, 150 or 350 kW, what’s to say that the electrical infrastructure supplying these is up to that task?

The areas now sporting charging stations are relying on a regional grid design that very likely didn’t account for the additional load requirements of large-scale EV charging stations. Perhaps EA fielded charging stations with charging capacities based on coordination for potential/future grid upgrades that have yet to be implemented?

 

[Needsdecaf]

Kort,
I see by your zip code you are from the east coast of Florida. So I would not be surprised by your getting 220 on a 100% SOC.

And yes I actually put my story in three threads. The ColoradoKid said I should try to put it into something other than the EA response to the "sucks" comments in PlugShare. So I created this thread and put something in the Edmunds mileage one.

Question: Did you ever look at the kWh/100 miles readings shown in the Tube 3, Trip, screens? If so, what is the highest reading you have seen? We actually hit high 41's while driving in the 115F temperatures at 84 mph (under the get a ticket for speeding limit) as we headed toward Quartzite. There is a rise in elevation so we attributed the highest kWh/100 figure to the rise in elevation. I suspect that along the east coast of FL you are fairly flat.

I didn't mention it in my replies/thread but I suspect that Musk will ask for some of the Infrastructure Bill $$$ to do the software & maybe hardware conversions necessary for non-Tesla EVs to use the Superchargers.

From talking to Tesla users, the Superchargers read the VIN before starting to charge. Tesla owners are required to have an account (with valid credit card) in order to use the Superchargers. All they do is plug the Supercharger into their Teslas and after syncing up, it starts charging. So there will be some way that non-Tesla EV users establish an account with Tesla in order to automatically or semi-automatically charge the car and charge the credit card. I suspect something similar to what I have with Electrify America, ChargePoint, EVgo, and EVconnect will work. Now as to the adapters necessary to use the Superchargers, there are already adapters that allow non-Teslas to use what are called "destination" chargers. They are mostly 6-8 kW chargers installed and owned by hotels and resorts. I figure that us non-Tesla EV users of the Superchargers will initially have to buy Tesla to CCS adapters for $150-$300. Since Superchargers have only 1 plug, I don't see Tesla taking any of their chargers and converting their plugs to CCS ones.

As you pointed out, I don't see Musk doing anything out of the goodness of his heart. One might think that he knew that this situation would arise because none of the EV manufacturers thought about the charging infrastructure as something they needed to invest in the minute they thought about making an EV. I think they thought "If I build it they will come!"

The motivation for Tesla is almost certainly to get more money to build more chargers. The vig is opening up their charging network to outsiders.

This will actually be done fairly easily. Non-Tesla owners who want to use the chargers will be required to download the Tesla app. It will be updated to have provisions for non-Tesla owners to select a charger to activate, which will be paid for by a credit card linked to the account. Really the only difference between that of a Tesla owner is that the activation will not be automatic, since the charger isn't reading the vehicle.

This was discussed during the last quarter end conference call. An adapter will be required, however it was discussed if there was some way to equip Supercharging locations with a "loaner" that could be used by non-Tesla vehicles, so a purchase of an adapter wouldn't be required. There was also discussion of whether it would cause issues with Supercharger overcrowding, etc. I can't remember the discussion only that pricing will be time of use based and also that they have a lot of data (surprise) on current Supercharging practices and don't expect it to be as much of an issue as it might seem.

 

[Needsdecaf]

So one thing I wonder about these charging performance issues is the underlying electrical infrastructure. While the charging station hardware may be capable of supplying say, 150 or 350 kW, what’s to say that the electrical infrastructure supplying these is up to that task?

The areas now sporting charging stations are relying on a regional grid design that very likely didn’t account for the additional load requirements of large-scale EV charging stations. Perhaps EA fielded charging stations with charging capacities based on coordination for potential/future grid upgrades that have yet to be implemented?

The Supercharging (any DC fast charging station for that matter) uses a lot of juice. But I think your concerns about "the grid" are overstated a bit. I've worked in development for 20 years and rarely do you get a new service without a significant load analysis. And if any updates to the surrounding system (new service lines, new or upgraded transformers, etc.) are required, they are paid for and installed for, the requesting party.

 

[kreshi]

Every single time I went to a 300kw+ charger in Germany, Switzerland and Italy, my 4S reached 260kw charging speeds. OP already made the distinction that it’s the infrastructure and @atebit also mentioned it. The car can do it all the time anytime (with low SoC of course). Just felt like it had to be made clear.

What EA seems to be lacking, is what Ionity in Europe at least is trying to do. Having a charger every 100km. How in the hell of 2021 are companies still not able to do that is a mystery to me. Thankfully in Europe it has reached a level where Tesla’s supercharger network isn’t that far away anymore.

 

[kort]

Really the only difference between that of a Tesla owner is that the activation will not be automatic, since the charger isn't reading the vehicle.

I believe that this comment is flawed. the supercharging unit and a tesla do have a "conversation" that determines if the tesla will be allowed to use the supercharger. there are many instances of tesla shutting off access to teslas for various reasons.

 

[riburn3]

I think it's fine if non-Tesla cars are charged a premium. (both as Tesla driver and as a Taycan driver). Their network. Their rules. On the other hand, non-Tesla drivers can prioritize EA/EvGO and fall back to Tesla when those invariably fail. That kind of "insurance" won't be needed often, and when it happens IMHO it's totally fine if it's at a premium.

I would take paying a 30-50% premium over being stuck on some 25kw or 50kw charger in the middle of nowhere or driving a massive detour.

It's also no different from what Ionity and others do (though they hide it in subscription pricing).

Completely agree. The real advantage to me is having another network of fast chargers for road trips that are much more reliable than EA is right now. They're often in similar locations or just a short distance apart, so if the EA charger is down, instead of praying you can make it to the next charging location 100 miles away, you are probably just 5 minutes from another charger. It also expands the places you can travel to, as currently at least where I live, the I-25 corridor between El Paso and Albuquerque has no EA chargers, making travel between these relatively close cities difficult for non Tesla EVs.

 

[thecoloradokid]

I always appreciate a good Electrify America thread, and now it can be made even more spicy with the Tesla supercharger network potentially opening for other vehicles rumor. That topic has already been beaten to death on this forum, so I want to switch lanes a little.

One thing that really concerns me is I feel that Electrify America has bitten off more than it can chew for the next couple of years. As we look at the massive number of new EV's coming out in the near future, I am not sure how sure how the current EA infrastructure can support the number of cars that will be hitting the road. They are talking about expanding the footprint in the next couple of years, but will they go back and expand current strategic charger locations?

I have driven 20,000 miles in two different Taycans over the past year and half and have driven in 12 different states, so I have been to a fair number of EA locations. The majority are 4 tower locations, and most have had at least one of those towers down. Rarely do I see other EV's charging while on road trips, but what is going to happen when all these new EV's hit the road by 2023 or 2024? I am a little spoiled because I live in Colorado, not California, so I have not had to wait for a charger. This, I feel will change in the future unless EA, and others, get on the ball about expanding the fast charging network in the US.

 

[kort]

I always appreciate a good Electrify America thread, and now it can be made even more spicy with the Tesla supercharger network potentially opening for other vehicles rumor. That topic has already been beaten to death on this forum, so I want to switch lanes a little.

One thing that really concerns me is I feel that Electrify America has bitten off more than it can chew for the next couple of years. As we look at the massive number of new EV's coming out in the near future, I am not sure how sure how the current EA infrastructure can support the number of cars that will be hitting the road. They are talking about expanding the footprint in the next couple of years, but will they go back and expand current strategic charger locations?

I have driven 20,000 miles in two different Taycans over the past year and half and have driven in 12 different states, so I have been to a fair number of EA locations. The majority are 4 tower locations, and most have had at least one of those towers down. Rarely do I see other EV's charging while on road trips, but what is going to happen when all these new EV's hit the road by 2023 or 2024? I am a little spoiled because I live in Colorado, not California, so I have not had to wait for a charger. This, I feel will change in the future unless EA, and others, get on the ball about expanding the fast charging network in the US.

I was recently at an EA charger in wilmington de where they had 5 charging posts. 1 was completely down, 1 150kw unit was giving 26kw, the next one over was pretty good giving me 120+kw the next one a 350 required EA assistance for two different cars a ford and a volvo and the last one was on but wouldn't charge. while I was there there was always a car or two charging or waiting.

 

[Scandinavian]

Every single time I went to a 300kw+ charger in Germany, Switzerland and Italy, my 4S reached 260kw charging speeds. OP already made the distinction that it’s the infrastructure and @atebit also mentioned it. The car can do it all the time anytime (with low SoC of course). Just felt like it had to be made clear.

What EA seems to be lacking, is what Ionity in Europe at least is trying to do. Having a charger every 100km. How in the hell of 2021 are companies still not able to do that is a mystery to me. Thankfully in Europe it has reached a level where Tesla’s supercharger network isn’t that far away anymore.

I agree with you that Ionity in general seem to work much better than EA in the States. But I strongly disagree about the density of the network. Switzerland, Germany, Netherlands nd Belgium have good coverage, but try driving from the French Italian border up to Calais via Reims ( ChampagneDistrict)! Can be done if you accept to drive only at limited speeds, not motorway speed. Or try reaching Biarritz from Monaco.

Still a lot of improvement needed.

And the think of Oliver Blume stating at the VW power day that you can now drive your Porsche from Spitsbergen to Rome with the Ionity network. Really? Did he know Spitsbergen is a collection of islands several hundred kilometres north of Norway. To me that just shows the ignorance and lack of attention from Porsche, starting at the top. Surely they should hve checked such facts.

 

[kort]

And the think of Oliver Blume stating at the VW power day that you can now drive your Porsche from Spitsbergen to Rome with the Ionity network. Really? Did he know Spitsbergen is a collection of islands several hundred kilometres north of Norway. To me that just shows the ignorance and lack of attention from Porsche, starting at the top. Surely they should hve checked such facts.

I think that you may have found the root of porsche's problems. that said I knew going in that german cars can have very wonky electronics. I had bought my wife a BMW X7 that was constantly having tech issues, we sold it and she went back to Lexus. the japanese may make appliance like cars but they don't give their owners fits.

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