Confused and disappointed

[vegasmonkey]

You need to talk to a lemon law attorney. I got nowhere talking to PCNA even though I had documented all the issues and days out of service. My attorney got involved and my vehicle is being repurchased about 2 months after they took over. PCNA did over cash to keep the car as an alternative but the dollar figure wasn’t enough for me to entertain.

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[j.w.s]

Perhaps you took an unintended turn navigating the Taycan forum, unaware you’ve crossed into the Audi eTron section?

Wait, there's an e-tron section to the Taycan forum? Well yes there is. So I apologize - you are in the right section.

Looks like it's time for a Lemon Law case.

 

[f1eng]

I can fully confirm that they are two completely different vehicles!

They have the same battery, suspension, motors, steering, transmission ie all running gear.
The body and interior are different.
The software is different.
They are assembled in a different factory.

So it depends what you mean by "completely different".

For me, as an engineer, they are identical in most important ways.

 

[funs]

They have the same battery, suspension, motors, steering, transmission ie all running gear.
The body and interior are different.
The software is different.
They are assembled in a different factory.

So it depends what you mean by "completely different".

For me, as an engineer, they are identical in most important ways.

The chassis is tuned completely differently, so the driving experience is also completely different.
I have driven both and the Audi drives like a "family car". You should also test both vehicles once, then you will understand what I mean.

 

[whitex]

The chassis is tuned completely differently, so the driving experience is also completely different.
I have driven both and the Audi drives like a "family car". You should also test both vehicles once, then you will understand what I mean.

Yea, but this thread is about (un)reliability. Different tuning is probably not going to affect EV drivetrain reliability, since the two cars share the same drivetrain hardware.

 

[f1eng]

The chassis is tuned completely differently, so the driving experience is also completely different.
I have driven both and the Audi drives like a "family car". You should also test both vehicles once, then you will understand what I mean.

I have driven both and, yes, the software in the Audi gives a completely different feel.
OTOH the OP is discussing reliability of his car and for that it is the hardware, not the software he is having problems with.
In hardware terms they are pretty well the same car.

I actually drove the E-Tron GT first and was disappointed by how big it felt and nearly didn’t try a Taycan, in fact it was the Cross Turismo coming out and my preference for an estate car which led me to try the Porsche. I was amazed how much smaller and more nimble it felt, despite being the same size and mechanically identical.

 

[Ross]

Lest we forget.....
The single most important reason NOT to buy an Etron GT is the noise.
Leave aside the fact that it doesnt handle as well and it looks like an Audi A7 in a party frock.
You CANT turn the noise off.
Whether you like the artificial noise in the Taycan or not at least you can turn it off if you want.
The Audi Etron is like driving with tinnitus

 

[bxwatso]

I am surprised re the lemon process you describe.
The reason I own a Taycan is because I got a lemon 2021 Macan GTS. Porsche NA was beyond helpful and fair to me, including giving me a discount on the Taycan.
It's the same management, and I view Audi as an equal brand with Porsche in terms of customer base (different philosophies on engineering). So, I am surprised.
I note that each state has a different lemon law, so maybe that has something to do with it. Or, possibly, your circumstance doesn't meet your state's lemon definition, and mine did.

 

[dtich]

I have driven both and, yes, the software in the Audi gives a completely different feel.
OTOH the OP is discussing reliability of his car and for that it is the hardware, not the software he is having problems with.
In hardware terms they are pretty well the same car.

Wouldn't you say that, more and more, software-defined function and control is an integral part of an automobile's reliability? Hardware and build quality used to be the sole markers of reliability, but in this day and age the very same platform can be made to perform and wear in very different ways depending on the software controlling and tying it all together. QED. Your point about the similarities being greater than the differences on the two platforms is well-taken and not disputed, but in terms of overall reliability and UX, the software has much more of a share than it has historically. 2¢.

For example, there are many that present as and what would be considered to be hardware component failures enumerated on these boards that upon investigation are really more software handshake or backend server issues. That really blurs the hardware - software line at this point. And I'd say Porsche's software has more of those types of issues than I've ever heard about until now. Their component authentication system is nuts.

 

[dtich]

I would say all that, yes, on both sides of the argument, make my point. Also, even seized knuckles and broken teeth can have related electronics at fault in this day of drive-by-wire steering control and ecu-controlled transmissions. Obviously, there are parts which are more susceptible to pure mechanical abuse/mis-use/mis-adjustment than others. But, in general, algorithms have control over a great deal of the operations of a modern auto mobile. Not to mention the user interface and related systems, which while not strictly impacting mechanical reliability, can seriously impair a user's interaction with the vehicle making its inherent reliability suffer.

 

[whitex]

Wouldn't you say that, more and more, software-defined function and control is an integral part of an automobile's reliability? Hardware and build quality used to be the sole markers of reliability, but in this day and age the very same platform can be made to perform and wear in very different ways depending on the software controlling and tying it all together. QED. Your point about the similarities being greater than the differences on the two platforms is well-taken and not disputed, but in terms of overall reliability and UX, the software has much more of a share than it has historically. 2¢.

For example, there are many that present as and what would be considered to be hardware component failures enumerated on these boards that upon investigation are really more software handshake or backend server issues. That really blurs the hardware - software line at this point. And I'd say Porsche's software has more of those types of issues than I've ever heard about until now. Their component authentication system is nuts.

The difference between software and hardware failures, is that software failures typically affect all cars with same software and configuration, while hardware failures are per unit occurrences. While sometimes software can mitigate hardware failures, they are still hardware failures.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

The difference between software and hardware failures, is that software failures typically affect all cars with same software and configuration, while hardware failures are per unit occurrences.

Unless they're called, say, "HV heater", or "IMS bearing" failures, respectively. ?
I would agree that these are integrated systems (hw and sw), and ultimately the distinction is one without significance - in that a failure of either would very likely compromise the entire component. Sw bugs are perhaps easier to address, but they're also far more common, and more likely to escape detection in testing.

 

[whitex]

Unless they're called, say, "HV heater", or "IMS bearing" failures, respectively. ?
I would agree that these are integrated systems (hw and sw), and ultimately the distinction is one without significance - in that a failure of either would very likely compromise the entire component. Sw bugs are perhaps easier to address, but they're also far more common, and more likely to escape detection in testing.

Even a common hardware failure is still per car. There are known examples of Taycans with original factory HV heaters on the roads today. A software bug will affect every car with the same software and configuration, no exceptions.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Even a common hardware failure is still per car. There are known examples of Taycans with original factory HV heaters on the roads today. A software bug will affect every car with the same software and configuration, no exceptions.

Well, I meant a design flaw (and you probably knew that). Even sw bugs don't repro 100% - "configuration" does a lot of heavy lifting here. We've all (probably) had our share of Heisenbugs.

 

[whitex]

Well, I meant a design flaw (and you probably knew that).

Actually I didn't, I went with hardware failure over hardware design flaw, since that is the term you highlighted.

Even sw bugs don't repro 100% - "configuration" does a lot of heavy lifting here. We've all (probably) had our share of Heisenbugs.

Absolutely. A reliable repro is most often half the battle in fixing bugs. That said in this case, it seems it's a "one of", or at least a very rare failure. It's probably hardware failure, but it could be some rare software malfunction - software might have gotten into some weird/undefined persistent state. I wonder if the dealership would re-flash and re-init all software before flying in some expert engineer from Germany.

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