EV's vs PHEV's - what makes sense in the next 10 years?

[Vim Schrotnock]

There have been a number of threads with good discussions on the merits/disadvantages of EV's vs ICE/Hybrid cars, and I thought it would be interesting to dedicate a thread to the advantages/disadvantages of EV's compared to Plug-in Hybrids (PHEV's). We're seeing a 'pendulum shift' that is resulting in a slowdown of EV sales, and my question is really about the near future. What makes the most sense for the next 10 years or so - an EV or a PHEV?

I was one of the first to jump on the Porsche EV bandwagon - buying one of the first Taycan Turbo S cars in Ohio. In retrospect an incredibly bad decision. I still love my car - it is one of the most beautiful and scintillating cars I've ever driven. BUT, it's been in the shop 150 days in the 3-1/2 years I've owned it, and I justifiably don't have any confidence in its reliability. My wife recently purchased a plug-in hybrid Mercedes GLS 450e and the car has been amazing in a number of respects. We charge the car using a standard 220V outlet each night, and in 6 months of ownership, she's only filled the tank 3 times - including a 1,200 mile round trip from Cincinnati to Philadelphia. Based on this experience, I'm leaning towards purchasing a hybrid plug-in Panamera as my next car in 3-1/2 years. I'll outline my thinking, and would be very interested to hear other's opinions on this subject.

First, some statistics for the US. According to government reports, the average person drives 37 miles per day, and 99.2% of trips are less than 100 miles. About 66% of people in the US own homes. I don't know the statistics here, but I'm assuming that because of the higher cost, a much higher percentage of EV owners own homes. I'm using this data to conclude that the great majority of people considering an EV/PHEV drive less than 50 miles/day on average, and have access to a plug-in 220 V outlet to recharge every night.

In terms of reliability of ICE vs EV vs PHEV's and Hybrids, here is some data from Consumer Reports:

Electric vehicles are far less reliable than vehicles powered by combustion engines, according to Consumer Reports' 2024 reliability owner satisfaction survey results published on Wednesday.

Data gathered by Consumer Reports from owners of over 330,000 vehicles ranging from model years 2000 to 2024 show that EVs are 79 percent less reliable than ICE-powered vehicles on average, despite fewer moving parts and simpler drivetrain designs. Plug-in hybrids are even worse when it comes to reliability, with a staggering 146 percent more problems versus traditional gas-powered cars. Interestingly, traditional hybrid vehicles scored best, producing 26 percent fewer problems versus ICE-powered vehicles.

Consumer Reports suggests that new technologies arising from the development of electric vehicles mean early adopters will have to deal with some kinks before reliability improves.

"The longer a vehicle or a technology is in production, the more the bugs are worked out," CR Senior Director of Auto Testing Jake Fisher told Automotive News. "The automakers that have produced EVs earlier, they're improving the reliability."

The biggest surprise of the study comes from regular hybrids, positioned as the most reliable drivetrain type. Consumer Reports says this is because traditional hybrid tech has been around for many years, with buyers that aren't as concerned with owning the latest tech.

"When it comes to reliability, the slow and steady are winning the race," Fisher told Automotive News. "The manufacturers that are making quick moves, those are the ones struggling with some of the new technology."

I would submit that ICE technology has become incredibly reliable, and it will take another 10 years or so for EV technology to hit that level. As stated above, Plug-in Hybrid technology is even worse than EV's. I do believe that both EV's and PHEV's will improve reliability considerably in this time, so I'm cautiously hoping that reliability is not a prime concern in the next 3-4 years when I'm shopping for a new car. However, the first point is really in favor of the EV vs PHEV.

Second point has been discussed at length, so I won't go into a lot of detail, I'll just give my opinion. It is a real inconvenience to have an EV when you need to take a long trip. I really question whether the infrastructure will ever be here in the US that could be considered equivalent to Europe (or China). It's the same argument you can make about trains and pubic transport - just not really feasible in the US because of the population density. I understand that things will improve, with more charging stations, faster charging and better batteries and range. Still, it doesn't come close to having an ICE car for long trips. Everyone I know that has an EV also has an ICE/Hybrid for long trips. You have enough things to think about when you set out on a trip without worrying about charging and adding an extra hour for every 4-5 hours of trip time. I don't see this situation changing significantly for the next 10 years. So, second point is a PHEV car is a far better choice for a long trip.

Third point is that you get virtually all the benefits of an EV with a plug-in hybrid and some additional benefits. Yes, you don't get F1 car acceleration off the line, but I'll bet the new Panamera Turbo S is pretty close. Leisurely driving around town in hybrid mode is pretty much identical to an EV. If you stomp on the pedal, the ICE kicks in, and there you get something I really miss - an exhaust note. You don't need a special charger, just a 220 V outlet, and the new PHEV's are getting 60+ miles to the charge, so you can virtually skip visiting the gas station, except for long trips. And the long trips are completely stress-free (based on the car anyways). It is so much more relaxing to not have to worry about getting to a specific charging station, will the chargers work, will they be available, and not adding an hour for every 4-5 hours of trip-time. None of this with a plug-in Hybrid.

Finally, from a cost standpoint, the excessive depreciation of an EV will be tough to get over. The extrordinary repair costs are also a problem. I do think the insurance companies will be raising their rates significantly in the coming years.

So, I'd like to make the assumption that the reliability of both EV's and PHEV's will improve considerably over the next few years. Given my experience with the Taycan I will be closely monitoring the reliability of any car I purchase ? . Possibly with new battery technology and improved infrastructure, the EV's will be more practical for an all-around car, but I just don't see depending on an EV for long trips across this country anytime in the near future. I also don't see how the cost issues will be resolved anytime soon. In my opinion, provided the reliability improves, it makes more sense to go for the plug-in Hybrid in 3-10 years rather than an EV. I'll be very interested to hear from others on this subject.

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[Brombaer1971]

to make it short, IMHO a hybrid is not a Solution that makes Sense, maximum technical complexity and still burning of fossil fuels which in the long run is a Problem (I still have a fun car running on gasoline that I don‘t intend to sell)

That the 1st Generation taycan has its problems was somewhat to be expected, nearly everything is technologically new and also the complexity of Service and everything that is not Porsche AG is harder the bigger the distance to Weissach is.

Personally I just think these are typical problems that first movers have to expect (I am in the same boat with my 2022 Taycan Turbo, I just Hope Most gremlins have been sorted out already, though I had to deal with the heater already, but that took just 2.5 days including pickup of the car, sending over replacement vehicle. Perfect servic for me.

of course I feel the pain for you, it sucks spending a lot of money and having to deal with so many issues.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Other than recalls and a bit of interior being loose, my 2021 Taycan has nearly 58,000 trouble free miles. Personally I like the yearly recalls to try out the latest Porsches. With solar and net metering an all electric car makes sense for me from here on out. The Taycan will hopefully serve that role for at least the next 10 years.

 

[ShiftyWolf]

Although the basic workings of the ICE are well understood, increasing complexity in engine management still results in dealer visits. While my Audi never stranded me and it didn't stay on the shop more than a day for engine issues, it threw numerous engine codes over my three years that required dealer evaluation.

For PHEV, the major reported downside is that you are lugging around the extra weight of an engine and gas when operating in electric mode, hurting efficiency. I don't see that as a major concern but others may be bothered by it.

Part of what keeps me happy in my EV is the instant and smooth response to pressing the accelerator, with no jerking or hard shifts, and no ECU hesitation.

My two cents

 

[j.w.s]

There have been a number of threads with good discussions on the merits/disadvantages of EV's vs ICE/Hybrid cars, and I thought it would be interesting to dedicate a thread to the advantages/disadvantages of EV's compared to Plug-in Hybrids (PHEV's). We're seeing a 'pendulum shift' that is resulting in a slowdown of EV sales, and my question is really about the near future. What makes the most sense for the next 10 years or so - an EV or a PHEV?

I was one of the first to jump on the Porsche EV bandwagon - buying one of the first Taycan Turbo S cars in Ohio. In retrospect an incredibly bad decision. I still love my car - it is one of the most beautiful and scintillating cars I've ever driven. BUT, it's been in the shop 150 days in the 3-1/2 years I've owned it, and I justifiably don't have any confidence in its reliability. My wife recently purchased a plug-in hybrid Mercedes GLS 450e and the car has been amazing in a number of respects. We charge the car using a standard 220V outlet each night, and in 6 months of ownership, she's only filled the tank 3 times - including a 1,200 mile round trip from Cincinnati to Philadelphia. Based on this experience, I'm leaning towards purchasing a hybrid plug-in Panamera as my next car in 3-1/2 years. I'll outline my thinking, and would be very interested to hear other's opinions on this subject.

First, some statistics for the US. According to government reports, the average person drives 37 miles per day, and 99.2% of trips are less than 100 miles. About 66% of people in the US own homes. I don't know the statistics here, but I'm assuming that because of the higher cost, a much higher percentage of EV owners own homes. I'm using this data to conclude that the great majority of people considering an EV/PHEV drive less than 50 miles/day on average, and have access to a plug-in 220 V outlet to recharge every night.

In terms of reliability of ICE vs EV vs PHEV's and Hybrids, here is some data from Consumer Reports:

Electric vehicles are far less reliable than vehicles powered by combustion engines, according to Consumer Reports' 2024 reliability owner satisfaction survey results published on Wednesday.

Data gathered by Consumer Reports from owners of over 330,000 vehicles ranging from model years 2000 to 2024 show that EVs are 79 percent less reliable than ICE-powered vehicles on average, despite fewer moving parts and simpler drivetrain designs. Plug-in hybrids are even worse when it comes to reliability, with a staggering 146 percent more problems versus traditional gas-powered cars. Interestingly, traditional hybrid vehicles scored best, producing 26 percent fewer problems versus ICE-powered vehicles.

Consumer Reports suggests that new technologies arising from the development of electric vehicles mean early adopters will have to deal with some kinks before reliability improves.

"The longer a vehicle or a technology is in production, the more the bugs are worked out," CR Senior Director of Auto Testing Jake Fisher told Automotive News. "The automakers that have produced EVs earlier, they're improving the reliability."

The biggest surprise of the study comes from regular hybrids, positioned as the most reliable drivetrain type. Consumer Reports says this is because traditional hybrid tech has been around for many years, with buyers that aren't as concerned with owning the latest tech.

"When it comes to reliability, the slow and steady are winning the race," Fisher told Automotive News. "The manufacturers that are making quick moves, those are the ones struggling with some of the new technology."

I would submit that ICE technology has become incredibly reliable, and it will take another 10 years or so for EV technology to hit that level. As stated above, Plug-in Hybrid technology is even worse than EV's. I do believe that both EV's and PHEV's will improve reliability considerably in this time, so I'm cautiously hoping that reliability is not a prime concern in the next 3-4 years when I'm shopping for a new car. However, the first point is really in favor of the EV vs PHEV.

Second point has been discussed at length, so I won't go into a lot of detail, I'll just give my opinion. It is a real inconvenience to have an EV when you need to take a long trip. I really question whether the infrastructure will ever be here in the US that could be considered equivalent to Europe (or China). It's the same argument you can make about trains and pubic transport - just not really feasible in the US because of the population density. I understand that things will improve, with more charging stations, faster charging and better batteries and range. Still, it doesn't come close to having an ICE car for long trips. Everyone I know that has an EV also has an ICE/Hybrid for long trips. You have enough things to think about when you set out on a trip without worrying about charging and adding an extra hour for every 4-5 hours of trip time. I don't see this situation changing significantly for the next 10 years. So, second point is a PHEV car is a far better choice for a long trip.

Third point is that you get virtually all the benefits of an EV with a plug-in hybrid and some additional benefits. Yes, you don't get F1 car acceleration off the line, but I'll bet the new Panamera Turbo S is pretty close. Leisurely driving around town in hybrid mode is pretty much identical to an EV. If you stomp on the pedal, the ICE kicks in, and there you get something I really miss - an exhaust note. You don't need a special charger, just a 220 V outlet, and the new PHEV's are getting 60+ miles to the charge, so you can virtually skip visiting the gas station, except for long trips. And the long trips are completely stress-free (based on the car anyways). It is so much more relaxing to not have to worry about getting to a specific charging station, will the chargers work, will they be available, and not adding an hour for every 4-5 hours of trip-time. None of this with a plug-in Hybrid.

Finally, from a cost standpoint, the excessive depreciation of an EV will be tough to get over. The extrordinary repair costs are also a problem. I do think the insurance companies will be raising their rates significantly in the coming years.

So, I'd like to make the assumption that the reliability of both EV's and PHEV's will improve considerably over the next few years. Given my experience with the Taycan I will be closely monitoring the reliability of any car I purchase ? . Possibly with new battery technology and improved infrastructure, the EV's will be more practical for an all-around car, but I just don't see depending on an EV for long trips across this country anytime in the near future. I also don't see how the cost issues will be resolved anytime soon. In my opinion, provided the reliability improves, it makes more sense to go for the plug-in Hybrid in 3-10 years rather than an EV. I'll be very interested to hear from others on this subject.

Fast-forward say 5 years to 2029 and compare that generation of EVs to hybrids and gas cars:

- EVs are quieter and faster, just like they are now
- EVs cost less than other technologies
- EVs are less complex and therefore require less maintenance and fewer repairs
- EVs are 500-1,000 pounds lighter than today
- EV range is 300-500 miles, say 25% higher than today
- EV fast charging speeds are around 300KW, which at 5 miles/kwh means 200 miles of range in around eight minutes
- There are 4x as many public charging stations, used mostly for road trips since most homes/apartments have chargers

I'm 100% on "Team EV" right now, in 2024. But 2029 it'll be an absolute no-brainer! And by 2034, your 10-year horizon? All EV, save for a few niche use cases.

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

Fast-forward say 5 years to 2029 and compare that generation of EVs to hybrids and gas cars:

- EVs are quieter and faster, just like they are now
- EVs cost less than other technologies
- EVs are less complex and therefore require less maintenance and fewer repairs
- EVs are 500-1,000 pounds lighter than today
- EV range is 300-500 miles, say 25% higher than today
- EV fast charging speeds are around 300KW, which at 5 miles/kwh means 200 miles of range in around eight minutes
- There are 4x as many public charging stations, used mostly for road trips since most homes/apartments have chargers

I'm 100% on "Team EV" right now, in 2024. But 2029 it'll be an absolute no-brainer! And by 2034, your 10-year horizon? All EV, save for a few niche use cases.

I would agree with a few of your points, but the others - not if you're talking 5 years from now. No way that EV's will be the equal to ICE cars in reliability - that will take quite a bit of time - and they will be changing the battery technology - another new technology that will take some time wringing out the bugs. They will definitely not cost less - check out this thread if you want to get a window on EV cost to repair, not to mention the depreciation. I don't see how this problem can be easily rectified.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...placement-labor-cost.20407/page-4#post-313086

I agree they'll be lighter and have better range and quicker charging, but this only minimizes their disadvantages on long trips, and doesn't eliminate them. I also severely doubt there will be 4x the number of chargers in 5 years - does anybody really believe this? I don't see this happening in 10 years.

I don't see solid-state batteries being widely available for 5-10 years, and possibly longer. And of course this new technology will come with its own reliability issues. I also haven't heard any solutions to the cost issue in terms of repairs, insurance and depreciation.

 

[achaudh]

This discussion is very different when the gas prices cross $5/gallon in the US as that's when people start talking about virtues of driving an EV.

 

[T4S]

Actually, I believe it is a misconception that EV sales are slowing in the US. I had the same thought as well because of the media reports, but when I reviewed the actual data, it shows the opposite.

It was mainly Tesla that had poor 2024Q1 sales YoY and GM cancelling the Bolt which brought down numbers, other manufactures saw an increase in sales. 2024Q2 sales appear to improve (even for Tesla). But because they are the largest EV seller in the US, we tend to relate their sales to the entire EV market health. I also believe there is a debate to be had if that slow-down was related to the new refresh Model 3 not being eligible for the Federal Tax Credit and if people want to switch to other brands. Also, we would need to consider the entire automotive market as well, which seems to be slowing down for higher-priced vehicles.

I believe every technology has its use case. EVs are great, but they have their shortcomings due to infrastructure and battery technology limitations (range, density, etc.). This will improve over time. For those who don't have access to good EV infrastructure or charging at home, then a hybrid or even a PHEV would benefit best. But like others before me said, that comes at a cost - combining two already complex systems would add even more complexity, which means more costs for maintenance. I would really only consider a Hybrid or PHEV if it were significantly mass produced, so parts are easily available and lower cost. Otherwise, it wouldn't be worth to hold for long-term outside the warranty as evident by used Panamera ICE vs. Panamera E-Hybrid values.

Just my $0.02

Data:
https://www.coxautoinc.com/wp-conte...y-Blue-Book-Electric-Vehicle-Sales-Report.pdf

 

[Murph7355]

Regardless of power train the Panamera and Taycan are different types of car IMO.

The former is more like a big Jag. Quick, but not designed to make you want to throw it around. More luxurious. Having spent time in a loaner (admittedly not huge amounts) I wouldn't want a Panamera no matter what the power train. Not my sort of car.

We own a PHEV (XC90). It's a lovely car, but the only way it makes any real sense are if your daily mileage needs are well within it's electric range but you need the occasional very long trip, and/or if you need to tow.

I'd go as far as to say the latter is now the only real use case in the UK, as the range in cars and improvement in charge infrastructure when on longer trips make everything else largely irrelevant.

That doesn't account for subjective factors of course. The quality of the Volvo was a decent bit over the EV rival (EV9), which also helped sway my OH.

For most, PHEV is the worst of both worlds IMO.

 

[f1eng]

I bought my first hybrid, a Prius, in 2005 fascinated by the E-CVT technology (a CVT was so much better than fixed ratio gearboxes in Formula 1 it was banned).

I expected not to keep the car long, the motoring journalists were not enthusiastic, but I liked it and whilst it wasn't as quick as my 2 other (V8) cars is was a practical family car and I ended up keeping it and in fact my eldest daughter has it now, still on its original traction battery after 19 years, and uses it daily.

I bought the first PHEV version in 2012, so now have 12 years experience of PHEVs. It was excellent and still is. In 2018 I decided to replace it and was tempted by the Panamera Sport Turismo PHEV but compared to the latest PHEV Prius it was 4 times more expensive, 600kg heavier and mechanically complicated - nowhere near the design elegance of the (patented) Toyota hybrid system. Yes it was faster but the size makes it difficult to park in plenty of the places I go and I despise complexity so I bought a new Prius PHEV instead and have no regrets, in fact I had intended to replace it by the Taycan but have kept it so far and use it whenever parking is going to be tight. I only need to put about 40 litres of petrol in it per year now I have the Taycan.

My Taycan has been fairly reliable, though not as good as the Toyotas, Mercedes and Ferraris I have owned and I appreciate one's own experience colour one's judgement despite being limited.

I personally would not consider any PHEV with a complex and heavy drive train, which rules out almost all of them.
I don't see why EVs should be less reliable than IC cars but do realise that the shortage of mechanics and workshops properly trained to deal with them results in long delays and, probably, unjustified high cost.

There is a thread on floor damage needing a complete HV battery replacement. That is completely ridiculous. The batteries are designed to be modular and servicable. If the whole battery is replaced this is an inditement of the availability of spares and trained mechanics not a fundamental problem of the EV concept, a real enough problem to experience but should be fixed easily.

The thing that first got me interested in an EV was the instant throttle response of the Prius in electric mode.
Now I am used to it I don't ever wish to go back to an IC engine.

I am slightly bemused by the nostalgia for the shortcomings of IC engines. The noise is a downside as far as I am concerned. Yes, there are nice sounding IC engined cars but not many, and noise is tiring on long journeys.
I despise fake sounds in principle, whether on an EV or to make an IC engined car sound like something it isn't.

The need for a clutch and multi ratio gearbox is fundamental to the worst shortcoming of an IC engine, its power depending on oxygen flow giving very little power at low engine speeds and a very narrow power band overall. I understand the satisfaction of the skill of using a manual gearbox, I enjoy it myself, but basically if IC engines weren't so fundamentally flawed we would never have needed to learn it...

For me the biggest negative aspects of EV ownership are the weight, size and the shortage of charging infrastructure, other than that I prefer my Taycan in every way to any other car I have owned.

I plan to keep it.

 

[f1eng]

I also haven't heard any solutions to the cost issue in terms of repairs, insurance and depreciation.

For me this is straighforward spares availability and properly trained mechanics.
Rebuilding a battery using on the shelf spares would reduce cost and time massively at a stroke, whatever the technology.

Looks like simple lack of infrastructure investment to me.

If I were younger I would already have a battery repair and refurbishment business.

 

[Perry]

Regardless of power train the Panamera and Taycan are different types of car IMO.

The former is more like a big Jag. Quick, but not designed to make you want to throw it around. More luxurious. Having spent time in a loaner (admittedly not huge amounts) I wouldn't want a Panamera no matter what the power train. Not my sort of car.

We own a PHEV (XC90). It's a lovely car, but the only way it makes any real sense are if your daily mileage needs are well within it's electric range but you need the occasional very long trip, and/or if you need to tow.

I'd go as far as to say the latter is now the only real use case in the UK, as the range in cars and improvement in charge infrastructure when on longer trips make everything else largely irrelevant.

That doesn't account for subjective factors of course. The quality of the Volvo was a decent bit over the EV rival (EV9), which also helped sway my OH.

For most, PHEV is the worst of both worlds IMO.

I think it’s pretty telling that they’re different vehicles since the plan is apparently that the Panamera will also become fully electrified in the future.

Regarding PHEVs, I think they have some value as a gateway EV. I think there are a lot of people who are interested in having an EV as a daily driver, but don’t fully dare to commit entirely yet. Even I as a diehard EV proponent can actually understand that argument.

Take my parents for example. Having an EV that they just plug in at home would be a perfect vehicle for 99% of their driving needs, but there is absolutely no chance that they will start making charge plans or mess around with charging apps and whatnot. Fast charging works great from a technical standpoint, but the user friendliness is still not quite there yet. The closest is of course Tesla, but they have numerous other issues instead.

 

[Fish Fingers]

It's all horses for courses.
Personal circumstances vary greatly.

We have the Taycan and a PHEV.
It works really well for us.

The wife has the Phev (BMW) and does mostly local miles with long business trips a couple of days a month.
All the local trips are managed on electric (up to 50 miles per charge) and the longer journeys switch to petrol.
I would be cautious of her having to charge late at night. And she definitely doesn't want to.

We already have the home charger for the Taycan and get cheap overnight rate.

The PHEV is doing about 500 mpg.

So it works great for us.

But, if we only had one car - I think it may even be ICE.

 

[mattmatt]

You're right about the problem with long trips even if 99% of your trips are < 100 miles. You're wrong that PHEV is the answer. It might be the answer for you but for others the answer might be a second car or just deal with the charging infrastructure, which is my solution as the Taycan is my only car.

Personally I dealt with the depreciation by buying second hand and keeping the car a good number of years.

Insurance is an interesting one. Repair costs don't help but even ICE drivers will be affected by EV repair costs as you can't control what sort of car you'll run into. Plus a lot of insurance costs (in the EU/UK at least) are down to medical bills rather than car repair bills. A few 50k car repair costs are over shadowed by a single 5m medical claim.

 

[Scandinavian]

So, I'd like to make the assumption that the reliability of both EV's and PHEV's will improve considerably over the next few years. Given my experience with the Taycan I will be closely monitoring the reliability of any car I purchase ? . Possibly with new battery technology and improved infrastructure, the EV's will be more practical for an all-around car, but I just don't see depending on an EV for long trips across this country anytime in the near future. I also don't see how the cost issues will be resolved anytime soon. In my opinion, provided the reliability improves, it makes more sense to go for the plug-in Hybrid in 3-10 years rather than an EV. I'll be very interested to hear from others on this subject.

Of course the reliability will improve even further over the next couple of years for all manufacturers. Porsche have been much more reliable over the last MY compared to our 2020 models. And for Porsche to survive in that market it needs to continue.

Unknown over the next years is the costs for energy. Both Petrol and electricity. Our prices travelling through Europe is about €2.20 per litre. And likely to go up.

Difficult to say anything about infra in USA from our experience, but in Mainland of Europe there is absolutely no problems with HPC stations. The improvement of available chargers over the time since 2020 is incredible. All major long distance travel roads are covered plentiful. Many new networks opening month by month.

I have over the last 12 months done more or less exactly the same trans european trip in an ICE car (BMW M5), in the Taycan Turbo and just now in a BMW i4. And absolutely no issues with charging either of the EV’s.

To my surprise there was much less difference in the costs for driving the M5 compared to the Taycan than I had thought, but that is also at todays petrol costs. In 3 years where will they be?

So only drawback at the moment really is the much higher upfront costs for an EV. M5 and Taycan are reasonably comparable from a performance point of view, but there are of course many more frugal ICE cars. But it will never equal the initial surcharge over the time you own the ICE.
Insurance, service costs and tyre costs are about the same for M5 and Taycan

Below is a comparison of the costs for energy on the trip.
The trip was from Cannes, South of France to Cambridge area, UK, driving in the UK and then through Netherlands, Germany, Danmark and Sweden. Exactly the same route back.

Here are the costs for energy. Petroleum costs are actual paid receipts, while the Taycan costs are estimated by each countries charges and using my Taycan average consumption on long trips(22.8 kWh/100 km. about 2.9 mi/kWh)

The Porsche charging service is competitive by number of stations available, but not the best since most charging was done at Ionity, which is the price I have used. I did not use any of the other expensive networks, like Shell or BP etc.

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