This is a shame!

[f1eng]

If you're looking for bullet proof reliability, buy a Honda.

I own a BMW, Telsa and Porsche. Each one has its quirks but I'd rather be driving them than a soulless car. Bullet proof reliability is not my #1 goal. It might be for my mother but not me.

It is the single most important thing in winning the Formula 1 World Championship.

Having shite reliability and being good to drive shouldn’t go together.
Thinking it is acceptable is very stupid.

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[W1NGE]

It is the single most important thing in winning the Formula 1 World Championship.

Having shite reliability and being good to drive shouldn’t go together.
Thinking it is acceptable is very stupid.

Been munching thistles today Frank?

100% agree with you!

 

[f1eng]

I think you're on to something re Toyotas

A CVT is the best type of transmission but is very difficult and expensive to engineer for a straightforward IC engined car. I worked on one at Williams in the ‘80s and whilst it was perfected after I left it never raced, being banned before it could be
Toyota produces a super clever, light and patented installation they called E-CVT which is worth looking into if you are interested.
I bought a Prius in 2005 to try it out but didn’t expect to keep it long given the slagging off it got in the press, but I actually quite liked it.
My daughter is still running it 17 years later, it still has the original traction battery and runs well.
It has been faultless with only the 12V battery needing replacing every few years.

There is absolutely no reason, or excuse, for a car company selling unreliable (ie unfinished design) cars IMO.
If a small dedicated team can make a 1000bhp Formula 1 car suitable for its purpose in a few months I see no reason hundreds of people over several years can’t manage it.

 

[f1eng]

Been munching thistles today Frank?

No but pretty grumpy to still have no build date 7 ½ months after I paid my deposit.

 

[Pozuelo]

I can relate as I placed my deposit just after Frankfurt 2019 reveal and only got a build date in late April with mid-june build and July 1st hand-over. As to CVT’s, I abhor them as they keep the engine and gearbox whining at all RPM´s in ICE’s.

 

[f1eng]

I can relate as I placed my deposit just after Frankfurt 2019 reveal and only got a build date in late April with mid-june build and July 1st hand-over. As to CVT’s, I abhor them as they keep the engine and gearbox whining at all RPM´s in ICE’s.

A lot of non-engineering savvy people don't like CVTs since they are very different and people are naturally used to fixed ratio gearboxes since they are cheap and have been around for over 100 years.

The reality is that by having continuous ratio possibility the controller can:
For maximum performance, run the engine at max power and vary the road speed by continuously changing ratio.
For best efficiency run the engine at its maximum efficiency and adjust road speed with the transmission.
Obviously anything in between!

This is so much better than fixed ratio gearboxes that it was banned in Formula 1 racing over 30 years ago.

The thing is IC engines are very inefficient except over a narrow speed range where valve overlap and tuned inlet and exhaust are working reasonably well.
This means the reasonably good usable engine rpm range is quite narrow so to keep the engine working OK for a wide range of road speeds multiple different ratios between wheel and crankshaft have to be used.
On the studies we did at Williams GP Engineering in the mid 1980s it worked out we would need 12 or more fixed gear ratios to match a CVT.

The big problem is people aren't used to it and humans tend to prefer what they are used to. It makes me laugh when people actually prefer the old and familiar when it is actually not very good!

Electric motors have none of these shortcomings and need neither a clutch nor multi ratio gearbox.
The problem with EVs is the weight and cost of the "fuel tank".

 

[Murph7355]

....
There is absolutely no reason, or excuse, for a car company selling unreliable (ie unfinished design) cars IMO.
If a small dedicated team can make a 1000bhp Formula 1 car suitable for its purpose in a few months I see no reason hundreds of people over several years can’t manage it.

I don't disagree that unreliability is something that shouldn't just be accepted.

But, whilst I suspect you're being a little tongue in cheek, volume manufacture is an entirely different kettle of fish to an elite, bespoke sport such as F1.

F1 cars only have to be reliable for a race distance (2hrs/200 miles?) before they can be stripped, examined and rebuilt (OK, there are restrictions on that with main components these days, but still ). Components are "lifed". There's less concern about the costs needed in "servicing" because, as you note, to finish first, first you have to finish.

The conditions under which they will race are also radically restricted (no snow, ice, salt....not even that much rain these days).

The systems involved solely manage the car running and comms back to the pits too. So in terms of the different number of systems, they're going to have less.

You also have to worry about a very small number of drivers. Drivers who the car is built around, and who, one hopes, are absolute paragons of consistency in terms of how they handle/manhandle the machine during the time they are driving it.

Even with something relatively low volume (in mainstream terms) as a Taycan, that's a stark contrast to what Porsche have to design for.

No but pretty grumpy to still have no build date 7 ½ months after I paid my deposit.

tbh I had steeled myself for this being the case. I'd expect to get a definitive slot and locking down config some time between 2.5-3.5mths before delivery. And was expecting that lockdown point to therefore be something like 6.5-9.5mths after paying my deposit (1st wk of Feb).

Unfortunately I suspect the ship fire and the situation in Ukraine are likely to knock that back for anyone who hasn't received a definitive slot

The ship fire should be easy to quantify the impact of (2-3wks' production? Though I continue to be surprised at how little grasp Porsche seem to have of these things, bearing in mind modern JIT methods are meant to be so tight).

The Ukraine less so. Not sure if Porsche run multiple supply lines for components like wiring looms? I suspect they might, but wouldn't have thought they'd have a lot of slack in the system, and possibly don't automatically run the same model in multiple locations? I wonder how quickly a new supplier could ramp up production (and on topic, without risking more reliability issues ). I can see this hitting dates by 3-6mths easily. And prices by a chunk too (energy costs etc).

The shame to which I referred was EVs in general but it is intriguing that EVs are the least reliable and self-charging hybrids the most. Perhaps because a lot of them are Toyotas!
The other surprise is how much less reliable diesels are than petrol, I wouldn’t have expected that.

I suspect the drivetrain of an EV is probably more reliant on software (and more "complicated" software) than a basic ICE Car (and most ICE cars will be "basic"). So that might explain that.

Diesels....used in more situations where the vehicles will be abused than petrol? I know how my OH treats our Volvo and sometimes I'm actually more surprised at how reliably it runs! (Asking for trouble, but it's never broken down).

I wonder how "objective" the survey is...does a car being filled with the wrong fuel count as a "breakdown"? Or whether the respondents have all serviced their cars to schedule and done sensible checks between services?

 

[W1NGE]

A lot of non-engineering savvy people don't like CVTs since they are very different and people are naturally used to fixed ratio gearboxes since they are cheap and have been around for over 100 years.

The reality is that by having continuous ratio possibility the controller can:
For maximum performance, run the engine at max power and vary the road speed by continuously changing ratio.
For best efficiency run the engine at its maximum efficiency and adjust road speed with the transmission.
Obviously anything in between!

This is so much better than fixed ratio gearboxes that it was banned in Formula 1 racing over 30 years ago.

The thing is IC engines are very inefficient except over a narrow speed range where valve overlap and tuned inlet and exhaust are working reasonably well.
This means the reasonably good usable engine rpm range is quite narrow so to keep the engine working OK for a wide range of road speeds multiple different ratios between wheel and crankshaft have to be used.
On the studies we did at Williams GP Engineering in the mid 1980s it worked out we would need 12 or more fixed gear ratios to match a CVT.

The big problem is people aren't used to it and humans tend to prefer what they are used to. It makes me laugh when people actually prefer the old and familiar when it is actually not very good!

Electric motors have none of these shortcomings and need neither a clutch nor multi ratio gearbox.
The problem with EVs is the weight and cost of the "fuel tank".

Bring back the DAF Variomatic!

 

[f1eng]

Bring back the DAF Variomatic!

It was brilliant and much better than anything else available for that power of car.
It, and all other CVTs since get the standard complaint from non-tech savvy people and nobody makes one any more iirc. A sad case of the market not knowing its arse from its elbow…

Somebody built a F3 car using the DAF transmission but it was overweight, and even bigger drivers were seriously disadvantaged by their weight in F3 back then - why so many successful single seater drivers back then were like jockeys!

Today the only choice really are the Toyota and Lexus hybrids since the system is patented. They save a lot of weight compared to all other hybrids but don’t have a model to suit everybody.

 

[W1NGE]

It was brilliant and much better than anything else available for that power of car.
It, and all other CVTs since get the standard complaint from non-tech savvy people and nobody makes one any more iirc. A sad case of the market not knowing its arse from its elbow…

Somebody built a F3 car using the DAF transmission but it was overweight, and even bigger drivers were seriously disadvantaged by their weight in F3 back then - why so many successful single seater drivers back then were like jockeys!

Today the only choice really are the Toyota and Lexus hybrids since the system is patented. They save a lot of weight compared to all other hybrids but don’t have a model to suit everybody.

Interesting.

Did Ford not have a go to with CVT Fiestas at one point too?

 

[f1eng]

Interesting.

Did Ford not have a go to with CVT Fiestas at one point too?

Yes, and Fiat too iirc.
It is far too expensive to make for a powerful car compared to a simple multi ratio gearbox and the market wasn’t ready for it anyway, I suppose.
Loads of people don’t like the fact the Toyota CVT feels and sounds different and for the even more conservative Lexus market there is a setting to emulate fixed ratios, which is beyond stupid technically but the customer is always right!

 

[Pozuelo]

also Audi with its infamous Multitronic ...

 

[Wibie]

I only can say that my 4S was down with serious converter issues after 4 weeks of taking delivery which took them 6 weeks to get fixed. I'm driving my Tesla X already 4 years with over 125.000 km with only having to put new tires, replace the wipers and top up the window spray liquid

 

[XLR82XS]

Unreliability is the biggest defect any car can have IMO since it means it is no longer actually a car.

I am very intolerant of bad design or implementation.

Same. Something to be said about older Toyota products. They just WORK.

 

[gnop1950]

I've been driving Acura's for over 20 years and have to say the reliability has been outstanding. But I expect that from Honda and, of course, servicing ICE vehicles is an activity that has been perfected over many years.

It doesn't surprise me that EVs have more issues, even if they are primarily software. I'm one of those that aren't ready to go "all-in" on EVs just yet. Maybe in the next couple of years, we'll go all EV at our house. For now, my Taycan will be our first EV and the Porsche I've always wanted but was too practical to buy until I retired.

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