Using iPhone as a key?

[daveo4EV]

Now that I understand how it works (i.e., like the fob), I would absolutely love to have this feature on a future car of mine. No chance it will ever show up on a car that I already own, however…

Tesla's implementation works like a FOB
BMW/Kia/Apple's implementation requires you to "present" the phone to the door handle close enough to unlock

both are a step forward, but of the Two Tesla's the most "FOB'like" - but both achieve the result of not having to carry something besides your phone.

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[IrwinJ]

Tesla's implementation works like a FOB
BMW/Kia/Apple's implementation requires you to "present" the phone to the door handle close enough to unlock

both are a step forward, but of the Two Tesla's the most "FOB'like" - but both achieve the result of not having to carry something besides your phone.

Are you sure about that? I read on the BMW forums that the iPhone key is placed in the iPhone wallet, and that the same key appears in the Apple Watch wallet meaning your watch becomes FOB-like

 

[daveo4EV]

Are you sure about that? I read on the BMW forums that the iPhone key is placed in the iPhone wallet, and that the same key appears in the Apple Watch wallet meaning your watch becomes FOB-like

you still need to present your watch to the door handle and somewhere inside the vehicle to start it - but you can use your phone/watch as your vehicle "key" - but it is not FOB like

the watch is an improvement in that you don't have to take your phone out of your pocket/purse…

the BMW key is based on NFC technology (Near Field communication) which is only good to about 12 inches or less - like when you use your phone/watch to pay for something…

the phone/watch has to be "near" to a "reader" in the door handle or inside the vehicle to start the car…

I welcome actual experience with factual data saying different, but the physics of NFC prevent it from being FOB like.

Tesla's implmentation is based on blutooth which is good to at least 50 ft (sometimes more) so the car and the phone can detect each other's presence via proximity and unlock/open/start with out having to "present" the phone/watch to a particular reader location built into the vehicle.

so based on my experience, understanding and deep technical background there is no technicallyl feasible way for BMW's implementation to work like a FOB…

 

[IrwinJ]

you still need to present your watch to the door handle and somewhere inside the vehicle to start it - but you can use your phone/watch as your vehicle "key" - but it is not FOB like

the watch is an improvement in that you don't have to take your phone out of your pocket/purse…

the BMW key is based on NFC technology (Near Field communication) which is only good to about 12 inches or less - like when you use your phone/watch to pay for something…

the phone/watch has to be "near" to a "reader" in the door handle or inside the vehicle to start the car…

I welcome actual experience with factual data saying different, but the physics of NFC prevent it from being FOB like.

Tesla's implmentation is based on blutooth which is good to at least 50 ft (sometimes more) so the car and the phone can detect each other's presence via proximity and unlock/open/start with out having to "present" the phone/watch to a particular reader location built into the vehicle.

so based on my experience, understanding and deep technical background there is no technicallyl feasible way for BMW's implementation to work like a FOB…

The important word is “like” which is subjective. For me, and I recognize not you, using an Apple Watch to unlock the car IS similar, hence, like a FOB. And I don’t understand the relevance of your observation about starting the car. That’s something you have to do inside of the Taycan regardless of a FOB or Apple Watch

 

[f1eng]

I have been slightly bemused reading this thread.
I have had a mobile phone around 35 years, the same number for 30, but my wife neither has one any more nor wants one.

She did try but it was always lost or with a flat battery (or both) so not much use. She also used to misplace the cordless landline phone so she is back on a wall mounted wired phone, which she uses a lot but wouldn’t be much use unlocking our car when she is going to use it

 

[daveo4EV]

The important word is “like” which is subjective. For me, and I recognize not you, using an Apple Watch to unlock the car IS similar, hence, like a FOB. And I don’t understand the relevance of your observation about starting the car. That’s something you have to do inside of the Taycan regardless of a FOB or Apple Watch

will Porsche doesn't support phone as a key in any way shape or form…

for BMW you had to present your phone/watch twice - once to the door to unlock the car - and once again somewhere inside the vehicle to start the engine

with the tesla approach - you leave your phone in your purse, don't touch it, don't move it - and you just walk up - get in, and put it in drive - completely seamless…

and with the Taycan and a FOB you walk up, get in via comfort access (like Tesla), and my Taycan starts up without touching the ignition button…put it in drive and go.

it's all a matter of how seamless it is, and if you have to fiddle with a particular action.

with wireless FOBs you don't have to take them out of your pocket/purse - with BMW phone-as-key - you have to physically place your phone/watch next to something "on the car" twice before you can drive away…

of the two I prefer Tesla's approach

but again we have neither approach with VW/Audi/Porsche - we have comfort access FOB's in addition to our phones and watches.

 

[tigerbalm]

for BMW you had to present your phone/watch twice - once to the door to unlock the car - and once again somewhere inside the vehicle to start the engine

Worth noteing that Apple & BMW are progressing things. The implementation on the iX is moving to Bluetooth – specifically Apple's U1 Ultra Wide Band variant – that it uses to help find tags.

With this you can keep your phone in your pocket/bag and it just being near the car is enough to open and start it – same as Tesla.

I would imagine that all the manufactures that have been slow to adopt CarKey (and CarPlay took a while to get going too) – will implement this variant when they eventually get around to it.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/14/...key-plus-iphone-unlock-u1-chip-ultra-wideband

 

[IrwinJ]

Worth nothing that Apple & BMW are progressing things. The implementation on the iX is moving to Bluetooth – specifically Apple's U1 Ultra Wide Band variant – that it uses to help find tags.

With this you can keep your phone in your pocket/bag and it just being near the car is enough to open and start it – same as Tesla.

I would imagine that all the manufactures that have been slow to adopt CarKey (and CarPlay took a while to get going too) – will implement this variant when they eventually get around to it.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/14/...key-plus-iphone-unlock-u1-chip-ultra-wideband

Given that we only get one key which could get lost and render your vehicle unusable, I sure wish they'd implement it sooner than later.

 

[Oink]

Single key? That must be country specific. We got two.

 

[IrwinJ]

Single key? That must be country specific. We got two.

Mine is brand-new, took delivery last week. The dealer said I could only get one key for the time being because of the chip shortage. I then read online that this is the case for all new Porsche buyers.

 

[daveo4EV]

my guess is MY'2025 at the earliest for VW/Audi/Porsche - this isn't going to go more quickly - phone as a key is another round of new chips inside a car that you can't get because of the chip shortage.

my 911 delivered 2 weeks ago came with 2 keys.

 

[Oink]

Mine is brand-new, took delivery last week. The dealer said I could only get one key for the time being because of the chip shortage. I then read online that this is the case for all new Porsche buyers.

Oh, right. I forgot. That was discussed earlier. Haha. My bad.

 

[swhsv]

And the whole “use your phone as a key” paradigm has just been shown to be insecure (if they’re using Bluetooth Low Energy/“BLE”)….
https://www.autoblog.com/2022/05/17/ncc-group-reveals-bluetooth-hack-tesla-vehicles/

 

[daveo4EV]

And the whole “use your phone as a key” paradigm has just been shown to be insecure (if they’re using Bluetooth Low Energy/“BLE”)….
https://www.autoblog.com/2022/05/17/ncc-group-reveals-bluetooth-hack-tesla-vehicles/

yeah - they simply relay the blutooth signal to extend it's range - but they still need the original blutooth device to "unlock" the car - if you get "range extender" for blutooth LE - yeah you can extend the range of the blutooth signal to the device - which then allows the hacker to open the car door beause the car mistakening thinks the phone is in blutooth "range" due to the single extender…

simple changes to the blutooth implementation could defeat this - and it's still more secure than the FOB's we all use

also once the hackers "take" the car and drive it out of range of the signal extender - it will lock again and they will not be able to restart it

I could do the same thing with _ANY_ wireless technology

this boils down to "tricking" the car into thinking your phone is "near by" by extending the signal's range

existing vehicle FOB's are subject to the exact same type of hack, and yet are even more insecure in that they can be cloned - phone as key technology based on bluetooth can be tricked by a range extender, but still can't be cloned like _ALL_ existing vehicles FOB's can…

this is a classic click bait article and is letting perfect be the enemy of good/better…

if you're worried about this hack - but like your key FOB - then you are delusional.

 

[Oink]

It's the same attack as is being used for key fobs. A wave of Tesla's have been stolen here with that repeater attack. They remove the SIM so it can't be tracked. After that they rip it for parts.

Best way to deal with that is enabling pin-to-drive, or for Porsche -- pin-to-login. Or just don't use comfort access and such.

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