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[Gwaihir]

Tesla announced they'd be putting out a production sedan in 2009, and showed a prototype in 2010. Porsche announced they were working on a hybrid LMP in 2011. The Taycan was the result of Porsche's learnings in endurance racing (like almost everything they do), and them realizing the days of the ICE are dwindling. (Witness their investments in synthetic fuels, and ponder that a 911 only makes sense with an ICE. As long as EV platforms are of the skateboard kind, "rear-engined" is a suboptimal approach. It may make sense when you can squeeze ~60-80kWh of storage + drive unit in the same space currently taken by the engine.)

There is no question that Tesla has shown the industry a new path, and that their lead in software is still significant. (I don't mean their autonomous .. stuff, just car-as-a-service; the other day they shipped a release that cuts power steering assistance in certain conditions. The rest of the auto industry is probably years behind, or are just saying "hard nope".) But let's keep it at that, it's not as if they invented the EV. Lots of people understand how electricity works. (And look up Lohner Porsche for an entertaining reading.)

Thanks for the reply: Sorry for not answer you directly, it’s not cherry picking time, but I do have the option, or not. However, I would like to ask a simple question that as yet I’m surprised hasn’t been asked, or answered:

Does anybody believe (again sorry, not believe) know if any legacy automotive company was willing to stop ICE production and start EV design & production BEFORE Tesla was formed.

Thank you.

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[WasserGKuehlt]

Does anybody believe (again sorry, not believe) know if any legacy automotive company was willing to stop ICE production and start EV design & production BEFORE Tesla was formed.

It's been tried. Many times. (Your own GM EV1 example.) Hybrids have been around for quite some time, others tried Hydrogen. There was always a push for 'clean' - it's not as if the idea wasn't floating around- but, as you said, there's a time and place.

I don't want to pick a logic fight with a circuit board designer ;-) but just because no one had bet the farm on EVs before Tesla doesn't mean we wouldn't have had EVs _without_ Tesla. It _might_ mean others did follow Tesla, but that depends largely on the exact meaning of "follow". (It could be anything from "imitation" to "you jump first".)

BMW burned a lot of money on their first gen 'i' cars - with not much to show for it. No publicly-traded auto manufacturer could have dared to float a pivot to EVs - this isn't the innovator's dilemma that kept them making money the "old" way; the realities of EVs even today make them still unpractical for a vast majority of the (US) population, and it'd be stupid/irresponsible to stop addressing 90+% of the market by volume.

Having said that, there is, again, no contest that Tesla showed the way in many respects - both in what/how to do, and what/how not to ;-) - and quite a few of their competitors have taken note, and took them on.

 

[Gwaihir]

It's been tried. Many times. (Your own GM EV1 example.) Hybrids have been around for quite some time, others tried Hydrogen. There was always a push for 'clean' - it's not as if the idea wasn't floating around- but, as you said, there's a time and place.

I don't want to pick a logic fight with a circuit board designer ;-) but just because no one had bet the farm on EVs before Tesla doesn't mean we wouldn't have had EVs _without_ Tesla. It _might_ mean others did follow Tesla, but that depends largely on the exact meaning of "follow". (It could be anything from "imitation" to "you jump first".)

BMW burned a lot of money on their first gen 'i' cars - with not much to show for it. No publicly-traded auto manufacturer could have dared to float a pivot to EVs - this isn't the innovator's dilemma that kept them making money the "old" way; the realities of EVs even today make them still unpractical for a vast majority of the (US) population, and it'd be stupid/irresponsible to stop addressing 90+% of the market by volume.

Having said that, there is, again, no contest that Tesla showed the way in many respects - both in what/how to do, and what/how not to ;-) - and quite a few of their competitors have taken note, and took them on.

Sorry for any delay: l do like looking at woodwork video’s. A new passion.

I’m not arguing with anything you said. But just a small point:

I’m not sure you answered my question? And if you did, as I said. It would helpful if you showed the proof. Me being scientific and all. Just a small thing. . .

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I’m not sure you answered my question? And if you did, as I said. It would helpful if you showed the proof. Me being scientific and all. Just a small thing. . .

Wood [sic](heh) this work? Oliver Parker Fritchle - Wikipedia

But I'll bite: the answer to your question is - to my knowledge - "no one". But technically speaking, neither did Tesla do what you asked (they didn't stop ICE production to go full EV), so besides being tendentious, I'm not exactly sure what is the purpose of said question. You are making a logic inference that is clearly flawed. In my previous answer I tried to explain why, but if it helps I can definitely produce a formal demonstration. We just need to agree on what are the predicates (and who's buying the beers when we're done).

 

[Gwaihir]

Wood [sic](heh) this work? Oliver Parker Fritchle - Wikipedia

But I'll bite: the answer to your question is - to my knowledge - "no one". But technically speaking, neither did Tesla do what you asked (they didn't stop ICE production to go full EV), so besides being tendentious, I'm not exactly sure what is the purpose of said question. You are making a logic inference that is clearly flawed. In my previous answer I tried to explain why, but if it helps I can definitely produce a formal demonstration. We just need to agree on what are the predicates (and who's buying the beers when we're done).

Hi: Again I must apologise for not being clearer.

What I wanted to get over, and I hope, this will help is: I’m intending to try and understand if anybody on the Forum has similar thoughts to me regarding EV production. And as a small aide-memoire,
I’m referring to the comment about

‘Does anybody believe know if any legacy automotive company was willing to stop ICE production and start EV design & production BEFORE Tesla was formed.‘


i will add something: it’s not the Tesla bit that’s important, rather the other manufacturers. And I’m happy to add what I think it means, in a different way. Although I ask “please consider as well, the highlighted text Above”.

Those assumptions I have listed below should be considered if Tesla was not present First:

Would far more people be driving either Petrol, (gas) or diesel powered vehicles?

Would the VW group - Porsche included - have an Electric car?

Would ANY automotive vehicle manufacturer risk profit, shareholders returns on something else new to them?

Would any risk losing sales?

Would any consider totally new technology if they could continue just improving current models?

And finally: would they be happy to see Diesel and petrol number reduce, risk new technology while their established income reduces, still needing to service any vast debt?

Then ask the same questions but with Tesla as-is today? People buying their cars in big numbers worldwide. New factories going up, production costs lower than any other manufacture. Profit per vehicle higher than any other manufacturer. Zero advertising (bribery) cost, millions following with interest, open and Patents world wide and sales moving up to become number one for EV’s?

That what I did!


These are the thoughts I had, the process I went through. I think you know my understanding of the data I looked at. I’m interested in others though? Although as I did say earlier, it makes no difference. My true feeling is I want more to question what the know. Remove the believe bit, and add the know bit!

Not trying to change the world here, just hoping to reduce any bias thinking, years of company payed information, subliminal advertising etc. again just asking all to question the data.

Your choice. Thanks again for the question. My mistake for not being clear enough.

Final point just for clarification: I don’t sleep much. The good thing, when awake, I’m fully functional mentally. So have a lot of time on any subject I’m interested in. ?

 

[Gwaihir]

Finished above. This entry a mistake. Maybe I do need a little sleep I was up yesterday around 03:00 AM.

Think I’ll call it a night. . .
Did try and delete this as not intended. Could have made another mistake a it’s still here?

Oh go on, I will add something now. Only small.

I’m surprised how few have made comments. Obviously most have fixed, unchanging views, or are unwilling to consider new data? This does go back, I think, to the believe / verse know.

Could be very interesting if the forum asked the question of the group to ascertain the percentages?

just a further thought. . . .

 

[whitex]

It had to stop without an engine. And it did. . .

I'm sure that was not the only engineering requirement, or a simple drop anchor would do .

 

[whitex]

Hi: Again I must apologise for not being clearer.

What I wanted to get over, and I hope, this will help is: I’m intending to try and understand if anybody on the Forum has similar thoughts to me regarding EV production. And as a small aide-memoire,
I’m referring to the comment about

‘Does anybody believe know if any legacy automotive company was willing to stop ICE production and start EV design & production BEFORE Tesla was formed.‘


i will add something: it’s not the Tesla bit that’s important, rather the other manufacturers. And I’m happy to add what I think it means, in a different way. Although I ask “please consider as well, the highlighted text Above”.

Those assumptions I have listed below should be considered if Tesla was not present First:

Would far more people be driving either Petrol, (gas) or diesel powered vehicles?

Would the VW group - Porsche included - have an Electric car?

Would ANY automotive vehicle manufacturer risk profit, shareholders returns on something else new to them?

Would any risk losing sales?

Would any consider totally new technology if they could continue just improving current models?

And finally: would they be happy to see Diesel and petrol number reduce, risk new technology while their established income reduces, still needing to service any vast debt?

Then ask the same questions but with Tesla as-is today? People buying their cars in big numbers worldwide. New factories going up, production costs lower than any other manufacture. Profit per vehicle higher than any other manufacturer. Zero advertising (bribery) cost, millions following with interest, open and Patents world wide and sales moving up to become number one for EV’s?

That what I did!


These are the thoughts I had, the process I went through. I think you know my understanding of the data I looked at. I’m interested in others though? Although as I did say earlier, it makes no difference. My true feeling is I want more to question what the know. Remove the believe bit, and add the know bit!

Not trying to change the world here, just hoping to reduce any bias thinking, years of company payed information, subliminal advertising etc. again just asking all to question the data.

Your choice. Thanks again for the question. My mistake for not being clear enough.

Final point just for clarification: I don’t sleep much. The good thing, when awake, I’m fully functional mentally. So have a lot of time on any subject I’m interested in. ?

I think whether or not Tesla spawned the mass transition to EV's is orthogonal to whether or not their designs are good or not. The only point of intersection would be that Tesla design is inexpensive enough to make money on the cars, something existing manufacturers did not believe was possible until Tesla's success.

 

[Gwaihir]

I think whether or not Tesla spawned the mass transition to EV's is orthogonal to whether or not their designs are good or not. The only point of intersection would be that Tesla design is inexpensive enough to make money on the cars, something existing manufacturers did not believe was possible until Tesla's success.

Yes this is a good point: And I agree it should be part of deciding. But all points I have included are. There are many I’ve not added here that I looked at. Nothing included about customers wanting electric? Nothing added about improvements over Ice, nothing about pollution. we could choose any then do the above test.

 

[Gwaihir]

I'm sure that was not the only engineering requirement, or a simple drop anchor would do .

The solution was a little more subtle ?

 

[f1eng]

BMW burned a lot of money on their first gen 'i' cars

I am saddened by this since, from an engineering perspective, in my opinion the i3 made some very good choices on weight and drag but the proof is that car customers are conservative and giving them something different is a hard sell even if it is good.

The i8 also is technically sensible - high boost low cylinder turbo with electric motor to solve the inevitable lag and in a low weight car.

The market doesn't understand engineering, and doesn't want to IMO.

People buy SUVs, the fat slob of the car market

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I am saddened by this since, from an engineering perspective, in my opinion the i3 made some very good choices on weight and drag but the proof is that car customers are conservative and giving them something different is a hard sell even if it is good.

For its time (and probably still applies now), the fact that BMW were able to mass-produce a 40k USD EV with a carbon fiber (reinforced plastic) body is nothing short of astounding. Very well designed and engineered, and indeed optimized for drag and weight without compromising usability. (Their CF processing was done East of here, at Moses Lake in WA. The reason was the cheap hydro electricity, predating the crypto miners by almost a decade.)

The i8 also is technically sensible - high boost low cylinder turbo with electric motor to solve the inevitable lag and in a low weight car.

The market doesn't understand engineering, and doesn't want to IMO.

People buy SUVs, the fat slob of the car market

While I don't doubt what people buy, I do believe it wasn't an either/or for i8 buyers - that is, they had the SUV and the trophy car. But with the best intentions and good will towards BMW (I've been a lifelong fan), the i8 did not have the looks of what it was trying to be. It was a bit M1, a bit spaceship, looked from behind like it had swallowed a 911 and ultimately was asking too much money for its performance.

Still, the reason I brought all this up is that, contrary to other opinions in this thread, other manufacturers _did_ invest exorbitant sums in a push towards clean/electricity (recall it was also BMW that ploughed for longest on the Hydrogen row) before Tesla became a commercial success.

 

[Scandinavian]

Guys, as interesting as all of the comments lately are, maybe we should get back to discussing the excellent document the OP provided a link to???

???

 

[Needsdecaf]

I'm just shocked that no OEM other than Lucid have figured out how to make EV power trains as well as Tesla.
Even though Toyota and Daimler were part of the development of the Model S and both bailed for some odd reason.
Head scratcher indeed

This is indeed, perplexing. Electric motors are, well, pretty freaking common! And used for all kinds of high horsepower applications as well. But still, to this day, Tesla has some of the best motor calibration in the business. It really makes me wonder if it's because they are so vertically integrated and can control the code for all the components that go into making the car go and stop. Because that will be the one thing I miss from my Tesla when it's gone soon, that absolutely pin-sharp response to the go pedal.

Guys, as interesting as all of the comments lately are, maybe we should get back to discussing the excellent document the OP provided a link to???

???

Haha, fair enough.

I have to say, that I absolutely love pouring through these type of tech docs. The amount of knowledge I can gain reading through all these engineering specs is incredible. Makes me appreciate just how complicated these machines are.

 

[TDinDC]

I am saddened by this since, from an engineering perspective, in my opinion the i3 made some very good choices on weight and drag but the proof is that car customers are conservative and giving them something different is a hard sell even if it is good.

The i8 also is technically sensible - high boost low cylinder turbo with electric motor to solve the inevitable lag and in a low weight car.

The market doesn't understand engineering, and doesn't want to IMO.

People buy SUVs, the fat slob of the car market

i8 was interesting, particularly from an engineering standpoint, but it was not a great car. It was an awesome paperweight or isolation pod. But car? Nope. Built like super car (ie, impractical) but was slow. Also, that sound. It always screamed poser to me. People buy SUVs because they are a better design to achieve the actual day-to-day needs of most people. And there are some great ones out there. I bought my CT as an SUV replacement.

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