📒 Exhaustive documents of J1 platform Audi E-tron GT / Taycan [250 pages of detailed technical information]

[Mr.Smith]

Obviously you never heard of Munro Live.
Great vids about all kinds of EV stuff, teardowns and reversed engineering.
Stop being biased.

https://youtube.com/c/MunroLive

I'm still waiting for a teardown of a Taycan...

He's an admitted Tesla shareholder and a Tesla shill. You won't be seeing a Taycan teardown anytime soon

 

[Dee]

He's an admitted Tesla shareholder and a Tesla shill. You won't be seeing a Taycan teardown anytime soon

It would be the ultimate teardown.
I'm dying to hear what Sandy has to say about the two masterpieces of Porsche: the two-speed gearbox and the hairpin windings of the stators (and overall design of the motors).
His team is very professional and know what they're talking about.
It would contribute a lot to this thread imho.

 

[Runestone]

that's true, in Europe you have to pay 850 bucks (even in the Turbo S) to get the 3 valves making the heat pump work.

Standard in Scandinavia.

 

[Gwaihir]

If you call Tesla's motors "shitty" you don't know anything about their electric motors.
It's a masterpiece in terms of efficiency, shear power, electronics and overall design.
No, not a Tesla fan but I do admire their engineering.

I’m in total agreement and feel need to add further to your comments. I hope you don’t mind?

Obviously, all are free to voice thoughts on the forum, I’m adding mine.

IF you know anything about AUTOMOTIVE Electronics, and I do, as I’ve had some 30 years in R/D for that sector. In fact, since the late 1080’s.

Tesla is not rubbish. It’s the leader. Period.

My feeling is what they have done is the catalyst that started the Taycan.

Does anybody actually believe all the Auto companies would have given us electric propulsion without Tesla when they could have just continued? Does anybody believe they would risk all their profits on a complete industry change? If they do then:

They are either being paid, by a manufacturer, or naive to the extreme.

Porsche have followed in many ways and are not leaders in the new parts of this industry. We all know they lead in handling, looks, steering and we pay a lot for that. They are not leading in the motor drive or electronics. Let’s be honest here. They can’t even specify the mains charger, and then are forced to halve the operating current!

Yes I’ve been and driven both the Tesla and The Taycan. I’ve owned Porsches for years. Mine is more than 2 years old. And yes, I’m still waiting for the next Taycan I’ve ordered. Am I fully happy? No. Yet I’m willing to let Porsche try again. Maybe I’m naive on this point. This is followed by a but. A big but. Unless we see some mighty changes at Porsche with technology, how they treat the customer and communication, you won’t have to worry about my comments on this forum in a couple of years!

Just one final point I feel I need to add:

The business model used by Tesla - if you can do it - is far far better than VW / Porsche.

Most people just are not getting it and it looks like people on this forum are also not following, or understanding, what I feel is the truth.

The difference with the Tesla model (I believe) is that:
It’s not profit driven.
Period.
Making money for Musk (now things are fully working) is not the absolute drive, it’s a consequence of what he , and the company, have made along with bottom up, very good, integrated design.

All of these companies goals are different and that’s why we should embrace the changes that have resulted.

The rest are following in their wake. They have Billions of debts that still need servicing.
Ask the question of Tesla’s debts?

Oh, and one final thing (and this IS my fault) I have only just found out I was involved in the Taycan design just before I retired in 2014.

Rant over. While hoping some of this is listened to.

(This forum spell checking on the iPad is crap) That’s my excuse

I might have uploaded many times over the last couple of years. What I have just read, has I felt needed a response. This has had the most impact for me. I’m sure you couldn’t tell

If you call Tesla's motors "shitty" you don't know anything about their electric motors.
It's a masterpiece in terms of efficiency, shear power, electronics and overall design.
No, not a Tesla fan but I do admire their engineering.

 

[Mr.Smith]

I’m in total agreement and feel need to add further to your comments. I hope you don’t mind?

Obviously, all are free to voice thoughts on the forum, I’m adding mine.

IF you know anything about AUTOMOTIVE Electronics, and I do, as I’ve had some 30 years in R/D for that sector. In fact, since the late 1080’s.

Tesla is not rubbish. It’s the leader. Period.

My feeling is what they have done is the catalyst that started the Taycan.

Does anybody actually believe all the Auto companies would have given us electric propulsion without Tesla when they could have just continued? Does anybody believe they would risk all their profits on a complete industry change? If they do then:

They are either being paid, by a manufacturer, or naive to the extreme.

Porsche have followed in many ways and are not leaders in the new parts of this industry. We all know they lead in handling, looks, steering and we pay a lot for that. They are not leading in the motor drive or electronics. Let’s be honest here. They can’t even specify the mains charger, and then are forced to halve the operating current!

Yes I’ve been and driven both the Tesla and The Taycan. I’ve owned Porsches for years. Mine is more than 2 years old. And yes, I’m still waiting for the next Taycan I’ve ordered. Am I fully happy? No. Yet I’m willing to let Porsche try again. Maybe I’m naive on this point. This is followed by a but. A big but. Unless we see some mighty changes at Porsche with technology, how they treat the customer and communication, you won’t have to worry about my comments on this forum in a couple of years!

Just one final point I feel I need to add:

The business model used by Tesla - if you can do it - is far far better than VW / Porsche.

Most people just are not getting it and it looks like people on this forum are also not following, or understanding, what I feel is the truth.

The difference with the Tesla model (I believe) is that:
It’s not profit driven.
Period.
Making money for Musk (now things are fully working) is not the absolute drive, it’s a consequence of what he , and the company, have made along with bottom up, very good, integrated design.

All of these companies goals are different and that’s why we should embrace the changes that have resulted.

The rest are following in their wake. They have Billions of debts that still need servicing.
Ask the question of Tesla’s debts?

Oh, and one final thing (and this IS my fault) I have only just found out I was involved in the Taycan design just before I retired in 2014.

Rant over. While hoping some of this is listened to.

(This forum spell checking on the iPad is crap) That’s my excuse

I might have uploaded many times over the last couple of years. What I have just read, has I felt needed a response. This has had the most impact for me. I’m sure you couldn’t tell

My god. Where to start.

Tesla is religion so I won't argue that here, but a majority of what you said about The company is not true.

 

[whitex]

It would be the ultimate teardown.
I'm dying to hear what Sandy has to say about the two masterpieces of Porsche: the two-speed gearbox and the hairpin windings of the stators (and overall design of the motors).
His team is very professional and know what they're talking about.
It would contribute a lot to this thread imho.

Sandy is probably still waiting for his Taycan allocation.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Tesla is not rubbish. It’s the leader. Period.

My feeling is what they have done is the catalyst that started the Taycan.

Does anybody actually believe all the Auto companies would have given us electric propulsion without Tesla when they could have just continued? Does anybody believe they would risk all their profits on a complete industry change? If they do then:

Porsche have followed in many ways and are not leaders in the new parts of this industry.

Tesla announced they'd be putting out a production sedan in 2009, and showed a prototype in 2010. Porsche announced they were working on a hybrid LMP in 2011. The Taycan was the result of Porsche's learnings in endurance racing (like almost everything they do), and them realizing the days of the ICE are dwindling. (Witness their investments in synthetic fuels, and ponder that a 911 only makes sense with an ICE. As long as EV platforms are of the skateboard kind, "rear-engined" is a suboptimal approach. It may make sense when you can squeeze ~60-80kWh of storage + drive unit in the same space currently taken by the engine.)

There is no question that Tesla has shown the industry a new path, and that their lead in software is still significant. (I don't mean their autonomous .. stuff, just car-as-a-service; the other day they shipped a release that cuts power steering assistance in certain conditions. The rest of the auto industry is probably years behind, or are just saying "hard nope".) But let's keep it at that, it's not as if they invented the EV. Lots of people understand how electricity works. (And look up Lohner Porsche for an entertaining reading.)

 

[Needsdecaf]

It would be the ultimate teardown.
I'm dying to hear what Sandy has to say about the two masterpieces of Porsche: the two-speed gearbox and the hairpin windings of the stators (and overall design of the motors).
His team is very professional and know what they're talking about.
It would contribute a lot to this thread imho.

I used to love Sandy's breakdowns but his guzzling Tesla Kool Aid by the gallon turned me off. Also, he tends to fixate on inane crap that even his other employees in the videos don't see the need to highlight. I had to stop watching.

I do love seeing the cars in pieces though. When he can keep his rhetoric to a dull roar, they make for fascinating videos.

 

[Mr.Smith]

I used to love Sandy's breakdowns but his guzzling Tesla Kool Aid by the gallon turned me off. Also, he tends to fixate on inane crap that even his other employees in the videos don't see the need to highlight. I had to stop watching.

I do love seeing the cars in pieces though. When he can keep his rhetoric to a dull roar, they make for fascinating videos.

Once respected in the automotive industry, Sandy has been reduced to YouTube videos for Tesla fans to watch.
Does any OEM use his services anymore? Most OEMs have moved to inhouse teams.

He admitted he has stock in Telsa and was flabbergasted by how much his investment has gone up.
He's also on the board of advisors for a Cybertruck accessories company.

He's a hired gun for marketing now.

I'm just shocked that no OEM other than Lucid have figured out how to make EV power trains as well as Tesla.
Even though Toyota and Daimler were part of the development of the Model S and both bailed for some odd reason.
Head scratcher indeed

 

[Gwaihir]

My god. Where to start.

Tesla is religion so I won't argue that here, but a majority of what you said about The company is not true.

Absolutely fine by me: it’s not what I think. - I’m just an old electronics engineer. Starting with 7400 series, working on one of the first Z80 based computers in production, designing many boards for it. Sorry, you probably don’t remember.
Those days computers had an external bus! I won’t go into more detail, other than this was pr-Dos from Microsoft. And IBM did kill our computer eventually. Still that doesn’t prove it was better. Just more Bill had more backing on the day And at the right place.

So I’m sure you are correct and this humble, and up until today quiet engineer has said very little other than issues with his Taycan. so my feeling is I’ve never been any Tesla fan with hidden a agenda.

So what. Nothing really matter about my thoughs and I guess yours. But what does matter - maybe - is what all the others think based on all arguments of the topic. That’s what a democratic debate is (I think). It’s how a scientist would aproach any problem. Open, real facts that have proven base, and open for disproveal. Two camps and it doesn’t affect either if I’m believed or not, yet I’m in a position (if I chose) to backup any thing I’ve said.

Religion doesn’t come into any, or this debate. In fact, no blind faith.

I just have one question: are you Religious? Not that it matter if, or what, you reply. . .

 

[whitex]

My god. Where to start.

Tesla is religion so I won't argue that here, but a majority of what you said about The company is not true.

Absolutely, to some people Tesla is a religion, or a cult, Elon can do no wrong, etc. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean that everything Tesla does is crap. They have done crappy designs, but they've also done brilliant ones. Start at a stupid charging connector, why is Tesla's so much easier to use than J1772/CCS? You may say it's crap, but it's so much more user friendly, and more reliable at DC chargers too, but that is more than just a connector - it includes the DC charger design, comms protocols, etc. Speaking of user friendly, compare Taycan charging UI design vs. Tesla, Tesla's is simple and intuitive, Taycan requires the user to spend hours learning how to use it, and users still get it wrong. Speaking of charging, compare $2,400 PMCC vs $400 Tesla wall charger. We can talk about the actual car too - how come a Model S, which is almost identical size to a Taycan, can drive so much farther than a Taycan on the same amount of charge while having the ability to generate way more power? How come Tesla can update a million cars plus over the air in just a few days, while Porsche takes many months to update tens of thousands of cars, requiring them to spend sometimes days in service?

The above are just examples of Tesla design which are better than Taycan. Tesla also does some things badly, such as brakes, manufacturing consistency, service (though I've read some horror stories about Taycan service too). They do some things which I personally dislike, like experimenting on customers. I obviously think Taycan comes out ahead in the comparison, or I wouldn't be switching, but saying Taycan beats Tesla on everything is just another religion.

 

[Gwaihir]

Tesla announced they'd be putting out a production sedan in 2009, and showed a prototype in 2010. Porsche announced they were working on a hybrid LMP in 2011. The Taycan was the result of Porsche's learnings in endurance racing (like almost everything they do), and them realizing the days of the ICE are dwindling. (Witness their investments in synthetic fuels, and ponder that a 911 only makes sense with an ICE. As long as EV platforms are of the skateboard kind, "rear-engined" is a suboptimal approach. It may make sense when you can squeeze ~60-80kWh of storage + drive unit in the same space currently taken by the engine.)

There is no question that Tesla has shown the industry a new path, and that their lead in software is still significant. (I don't mean their autonomous .. stuff, just car-as-a-service; the other day they shipped a release that cuts power steering assistance in certain conditions. The rest of the auto industry is probably years behind, or are just saying "hard nope".) But let's keep it at that, it's not as if they invented the EV. Lots of people understand how electricity works. (And look up Lohner Porsche for an entertaining reading.)

Hi: much shorter reply: I worked on the first production EV ( I think) The GM one crap and scrapped.
maybe that counts a little on my side of the argument. Sorry, debate. Just saying. . .

 

[Gwaihir]

Absolutely, to some people Tesla is a religion, or a cult, Elon can do no wrong, etc. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean that everything Tesla does is crap. They have done crappy designs, but they've also done brilliant ones. Start at a stupid charging connector, why is Tesla's so much easier to use than J1772/CCS? You may say it's crap, but it's so much more user friendly, and more reliable at DC chargers too, but that that is more than just a connector - it includes the DC charger design, comms protocols, etc. Speaking of user friendly, compare Taycan charging UI design vs. Tesla, Tesla's is simple and intuitive, Taycan requires the user to spend hours learning how to use it, and users still get it wrong. Speaking of charging, compare $2,400 PMCC vs $400 Tesla wall charger. We can talk about the actual car too - how come a Model S, which is almost identical size to a Taycan, can drive so much farther than a Taycan on the same amount of charge while having the ability to generate way more power? How come Tesla can update a million cars plus over the air in just a few days, while Porsche takes many months to update tens of thousands of cars, requiring them to spend sometimes days in service?

The above are just examples of Tesla design which are better than Taycan. Tesla also does some things badly, such as brakes, manufacturing consistency, service (though I've read some horror stories about Taycan service too). They do some things which I personally dislike, like experimenting on customers. I obviously think Taycan comes out ahead in the comparison, or I wouldn't be switching, but saying Taycan beats Tesla on everything is just another religion.

I m not sure if I mentioned it. I also had some 20 odd years in the electronics for Brake by Wire. New now as it’s needed without engines with a vacuum system. Just R/D for me ground breaking? Yes just going into production yes. Again nobody has to believe me. Other than I do have the proof. Over to all the others. . . .

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Hi: much shorter reply: I worked on the first production EV ( I think) The GM one crap and scrapped.
maybe that counts a little on my side of the argument. Sorry, debate. Just saying. . .

Tip of the hat, sir. Between this and your previous Z80 remark, I am sure you have seen some things.

Here is a memento for you (taken at the Petersen Museum). It really was rocket science.

 

[Gwaihir]

Tip of the hat, sir. Between this and your previous Z80 remark, I am sure you have seen some things.

Here is a memento for you (taken at the Petersen Museum). It really was rocket science.

Thanks: I do have one confession on the topic: I never actually saw the car, or had anything to do with the design. Just some electronics not available that they needed. It had to stop without an engine. And it did. . .