Ditch the PMCC (for now)?

evanevery

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Not sure why my genuine question elicited the snarky response, so I'll try to clarify what I was asking.

First of all, It's pretty basic for any car manufacturer to be very explicit in specifying the type of gas you need to use. For any rechargeable battery, it is also necessary to specify current max, charge rate, voltage etc. My question is really about whether it is possible to hook up to a charging system that could have a negative effect on the battery, and therefore void the warranty. I'm not familiar with EV's or charging systems, so that's why I'm asking.
Sorry, but there is an unfortunate misconception that its "better" to use a specific auto mfr's charger with their specific cars. (This misconception is not unique to Porsche). Like one auto mfr's chargers are somehow better for their cars. (Actually, there is a whole thread here on this forum about a potential thermal problem in the Porsche charger cabling). This misconception is not particularly helpful in promoting the EV ecosystem in general. We all need to get past that...

Anyway, the whole point of EV ownership is the ability to use lots of chargers in lots of different places without having to be a rocket scientist. Just like when you pull in to a gas station, you should be able to use any public charging station. (Tesla's proprietary charging network notwithstanding...)

Just like putting bad gas in your tank, I expect its possible to find a "bad" (broken) charger somewhere. But otherwise, no, you can use any industry standard (J1772) charger from any manufacturer hooked up to any utility company. Basically, if it fits in your socket, it will work with your car. Some stations also have other charger types (Tesla, Chademo ) but, if you do find them, they won't fit in your car's charging port. So, no, nothing you plug in to your car is going to break your car or void your warranty (unless its somehow terribly misfunctioning, miswired, etc)

We may call the charging station a "charger", but the actual charger is located in the car itself. The EVSE Terminal (charging station) simply provides the electricity. (Its basically just a big relay). The charger in the car will automatically control the appropriate charging current, etc.
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Toby Pennycuff

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Not sure why my genuine question elicited the snarky response, so I'll try to clarify what I was asking.

First of all, It's pretty basic for any car manufacturer to be very explicit in specifying the type of gas you need to use. For any rechargeable battery, it is also necessary to specify current max, charge rate, voltage etc. My question is really about whether it is possible to hook up to a charging system that could have a negative effect on the battery, and therefore void the warranty. I'm not familiar with EV's or charging systems, so that's why I'm asking.
Vim,

While not an authority on how Porsche would handle any sort of warranty claim related to the battery in our Taycans, it is a good question. Perhaps the one thing in our favor is the plethora of charging choices "in the wild" - from EA to EVGo to ChargePoint et al. Most of these chargers are Level 2 chargers (similar to the PMCC, but without Porsche's software load), and so logic would seem to imply (AKA I am assuming - and we ALL know the component parts of the word assume!) that Porsche would be hard-pressed to deny a warranty claim for using anything other than a PMCC to charge your car. The good news here is that there are really only two ways to charge these cars - a L1/L2 AC charger (the ubiquitous EVSE we all blather on about) and the L3 DC fast charger. Since Porsche has no control over who offers L1/L2/L3 charging service other than the controls exercised by the type of electrical receptacle they install on the car and the J-1772 defined protocol, I think we are likely going to be OK using a non-Porsche EVSE.

I literally visited my dealer today so that they can refund the extraordinary amount of money I paid for a second PMCC - we are fortunate enough to have a weekend house, and I am being a bit lazy by simply leaving one at the house where we spend most of our time rather than dragging the PMCC around in the car. Now, I am working through whether to buy the dumb-as-a-post ClipperCreek charger or the "nicer looking" JuiceBox charger. Both seem to enjoy a decent reputation as a reliable device, both are comparably priced.... so it seems to be a toss-up for me right now. (Although I'm willing to be swayed!)

I think you can feel safe that acquiring an non-Porsche EVSE will be OK. My $.02.

Toby
 

daveo4EV

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the external charger has _NO_ power modifications (amps, volts, phase, frequency) - it’s simpy a “pass through” device to provide 120/240 volt AC power to the vehicle’s onboard charger…

the Onbaord charger and Battery Management Software (BMS) is responsible for what type of DC current is provided to the battery and has the ultimate authority over what power “touches” the battery.

with the AC/DC converter in the vehicle (the 11 kW onboard charger) and the BMS it’s nearly impossible for me to envision an external powersource being able to get past the onboard AC/DC converter and BMS to damage the battery

think of it this way…

power coming from the External EVSE (Porsche, Ford, clipper-creek, etc…) is like water coming from the city water supply - but it’s on a fancy valve that the car can turn on/off - it’s simply water from the main source - no modifications

inside the car there is a “filtration system” (AC2DC converter + BMS software) it’s responsible for making the raw source power from the EVSE acceptable for teh battery (like balancing the PH/chorline before letting the water go into to your pool).

It would be nearly impossible for Porsche to prove an external generic power source damaged the battery when their own vehicle systems (AC2DC converter) and BMS have the ultimate control of what power touches the battery.

J-1772 EVSE’s are _NOT_ smart or clever or sophisticated - they are simple a a giant relay-switch that lets power pass or not based on command/control signals that come from the vehicles charging system - once the power is flowing the EVSE is a passive bystander simply watching the unmodified AC power flow past it…the EVSE only slightly passes as having a bit of smarts in that it is responsible for telling the vehicle how much flow it can offer (amps) and ”smart” EVSE’s will modify this “flow” value during charging to achieve goals such as matching load to current solar output.

but it bears repeating - in North America the J-1772 standard is stupid stupid stupid -and I’m unaware of _ANY_ commerical J-1772 EVSE that will modify the AC characteristics of the power flowing through them (the only that could possibly matter to the car) - what ever Volts/AMPs/Phase/Freqency exist as input to the EVSE will be exactly the same on the output side - the EVSE is _DUMB_ and simply a safety switch to prevent power from flowing if’s not plugged into a J-1772 vehicle…

Porsche’s onboard charging software and hardware is responsible for battery health and safety and is the sole entity that “touchs” the battery - the EVSE is nothing more than a valve that let’s power flow or not flow - and it does not modify the flow.\

A J-1772 EVSE does 2 things:
  1. provides a swtich/valve that the vehicle can control to start/stop AC power flowing
  2. publishes the maximum current (AMPs) that it can offer
the onboard vehicle charger and BMS does the rest. The vehicle starts/stops the power flow (by sending a request to the EVSE), and the vehicle controls the amount of current it’s requesting and will not request more than the EVSE publishes as it’s maximum current flow rate.

_IF_ the external EVSE were involved in a charging session that damages the battery - it would simply be a passive bystander in the process - once the relay is “close” and lets powerflow it’s no different than if the car were plugged directly into the grid power source - since all the EVSE does is provide an on/off switch - so ultimately it would be the power source that was at fault not the EVSE - but then we would argue why did the vehicle’s onboard charger AC2DC converter and BMS “allow’ the “bad” power to touch the battery - if the power source is “bad” it should simply shut off the flow from the EVSE and it has full authority to do so - in fact that’s it’s only JOB is to regulate and convert the AC power from the source to acceptable parameters for a DC powersource to the battery.

unless the AC/DC converter is defective and BMS software has loads of bugs - it’s simpy not possible for a “bad” external power source to damage the battery - but that still leaves porsche and their systems in complete control of charging the battery. So it would be their bad AC2DC converter and their bad BMS that allowed the damage to occur. The external EVSE can not force electrons into the battery…
 
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evanevery

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...I think you can feel safe that acquiring an non-Porsche EVSE will be OK. My $.02.
There is absolutely no question about this. It would be contrary to everything EV ownership is about. It would be one poorly designed EV if you were required to use the manufacturers mobile charger all the time! Not being able to charge on the road? No one would buy it!
 

daveo4EV

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@Toby Pennycuff

my $0.02 on your EVSE purchase

  1. JuiceBox for that cool DYI vibe and some nifty EV enthusiast hacks and capabililties, and a vibrate community of fellow electron-heads. But reliable and open EVSE with tons of possbile features, but still simply charge the car.
  2. ClipperCreek for the no-frill blue-collar EVSE vide that exudes ”I do one and only one thing, and that’s my thing and I’ve mastered my thing so get over it and I’m damm good at my thing but I don’t look pretty while doing my thing but I always do my thing.” bullet-proof.
Get the ClipperCreek Dual-charger HCS-60 or HCS-80 and I promise you’ll still be using it 15 years from now to charge both your EV’s.
 


Toby Pennycuff

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@Toby Pennycuff

my $0.02 on your EVSE purchase

  1. JuiceBox for that cool DYI vibe and some nifty EV enthusiast hacks and capabililties, and a vibrate community of fellow electron-heads. But reliable and open EVSE with tons of possbile features, but still simply charge the car.
  2. ClipperCreek for the no-frill blue-collar EVSE vide that exudes ”I do one and only one thing, and that’s my thing and I’ve mastered my thing so get over it and I’m damm good at my thing but I don’t look pretty while doing my thing but I always do my thing.” bullet-proof.
Get the ClipperCreek Dual-charger HCS-60 or HCS-80 and I promise you’ll still be using it 15 years from now to charge both your EV’s.
Got it. As soon as I confirm that I have (literally) thousands of dollars refunded to my credit card, I'm ordering the HCS-60! I've got my than my share of gee-gaws with this car.... I just want something that will charge the vehicle and not melt!
 

daveo4EV

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make sure to get the HCS-60 with Share2 support - that way in the futrue you jsut add the 2nd one to your 60 amp circuit and BOOM - dual charger support witih split load charging for two EV’s
 

porsche_coyote

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make sure to get the HCS-60 with Share2 support - that way in the futrue you jsut add the 2nd one to your 60 amp circuit and BOOM - dual charger support witih split load charging for two EV’s
Yeah, a Share2 system is still cheaper than the PMCC. I'm delighted with ours.
 


CinVinman

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Phase 2 of the Mustart Travel Master gen 2 multi amp mobile level 2 EVSE test - 240 volts. I topped off the car with juice from my 240v line in the garage and everything went fine. Straightforward and easy to swap the 14-50 pigtail for the 6-15 from the last test and off she went charging. Constantly reported voltage of around 236 volts and the appropriate charging profile was automatically selected by the car. Once the min 85% was reached, charging ended.

First impressions are favorable. BTW, the pigtail adaptors were barely warmed by the process, unlike you-know-who's flawed plug.
 

elberk

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Got it. As soon as I confirm that I have (literally) thousands of dollars refunded to my credit card, I'm ordering the HCS-60! I've got my than my share of gee-gaws with this car.... I just want something that will charge the vehicle and not melt!
Maybe you can also ask your Porsche dealer, why they charged you that high amount at all, when they sell the same charger for a completely different price somewhere else on this planet. I would be happy to hear the answer. I found that on the UK Porsche website in the Tequipment segment.

Porsche Taycan Ditch the PMCC (for now)? 1598164533058
 
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Toby Pennycuff

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elberk,

Can't tell if have owned Porsches in the past or not, so forgive me if I am making an incorrect assumption here.

I've owned many Porsches (and continue to do so) over the past 20-odd years. What I have found is that Porsche charges every customer a premium for every single thing. It is there business plan, and they follow it fiercely. Their pricing makes no logical sense, save for some un-published margin rate that they must hit for every single thing sold containing the Porsche brand.

It doesn't make any logical sense, it just is...... I would keep the PMCC *IF* it would not create opportunities for skin burns while charging the car.
 

daveo4EV

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Porsche is a premium brand, charges premium prices, and general I’ve found their products to be high quality, well designed and generally among the best offering for a particular product category …

the PMCC is _NOT_ the best offering in it’s product category - it’s price is also beyond justifiable given the competition.

given the nature of EVSE’s - there isn’t much to compete on - and they need to do one thing - work well and charge the vehicle - the PMCC get uncomfortably hot during use, is heavy, complex, and not particularly mobile - it is also 3 or 4 times the cost of many high quality alternatives…

I expect better from Porsche and when they deliver it I’ll happily pay their premium, but the PMCC isn’t it.
 

elberk

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I've owned many Porsches (and continue to do so) over the past 20-odd years. What I have found is that Porsche charges every customer a premium for every single thing. It is there business plan, and they follow it fiercely. Their pricing makes no logical sense, save for some un-published margin rate that they must hit for every single thing sold containing the Porsche brand.
Trust me, I know that. And that is not my point here. I wonder why a Porsche customer in US is charged 3 times the price than in UK for the exact same thing, assuming nearly 1:1 exchange rate.
 

TaycanNJ

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Next time you charge wait until you get the error message and the screen turns reddish. Once the charger ‘screen’ turns red follow the instructions. they guide you through the steps required.
Finally got the message again and I couldn’t find any option to turn it off. Just the standard menu and charging history icons at the bottom. Strange.
 

bangersandmash

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maybe its a Europe specific function? I was able to deactivate. it has not comeback since then. I hope there is a way to deactivate for you too
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