EV's vs PHEV's - what makes sense in the next 10 years?

[irrelevant]

IMO any car is the wrong tool for Cincinnati-Philadelphia.

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[Zcd1]

I will always be an adherent to the "K.I.S.S" principle.

Hybrid vehicles are the ultimate example of the opposite of that principle.

I can't see any sort of hybrid as a long-term solution to the problem of personal transportation.

 

[hrtlik]

EVs. Burning fossil fuels and breathing fumes from it is nonsense.

Hopefully VW group (Porsche included) can get their s*** together and offer reliable and affordable cars. Thats why I was so eager to see chinese EVs as competition in Europe because germans got too comfortable offering same cars without much innovation. USA might need it as well but there is at least Tesla thank god. First Teslas had their issues as well, same with Taycan. When you look up Porsche catalog for parts. There is like 3-10 revisions of every electrical component so they are polishing it out.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I've been pondering the same question lately, as my wife's ageing Macan is nearing the point where the cost of repairs approaches half the value of the car. (Well, it's less about age and more about well-known design and engineering issues - the transfer case failure, the timing cover oil leak, which should have been recalls, but I digress.)

About a year ago, in the middle of my euphoria with the Taycan, it was unconceivable not to go full EV for the replacement of the Macan. The introduction of the Macan EV only reinforced that view. However, after a year and a half of horror stories on the forums (and they seem to keep getting worse, making even die-hard owners flip), I'm not so sure anymore - I may have the stomach (ie deep reserves of KoolAid) for quirks, defects and/or the vagaries of charging, but I wouldn't want to subject SWMBO to the same supplice in the course of daily transportation. Not only that, but, as we discovered on a recent trip around Mt. Rainier (undertaken, despite my grumbles, in the Macan), it's liberating to go into a charging desert and give zero fucks about the prospect of refueling: an entire class of worries just vanishes and, it turns out, makes the trip more enjoyable - like they used to be. (Want to take a 100mi detour? No problem, turn right here.)

Which brings me to the PHEV point. Like others, I had previously dismissed it as the flawed compromise, laden with the disadvantages of each of the solutions it combines. On paper, it does make perfect sense - the daily trips are within the range of a PHEV, and these trips do constitute the majority of miles on the car (and the pollution we produce), yet we'd still have the peace of mind of peaceful trips into the boonies (i.e. anywhere in WA away from the main interstates). But then I read of Porsche PHEVs with prematurely failing injectors, the range on all but the new crop of PHEVs is a pitiful 20mi, we dislike the styling of the known-reliable options (Lexus), and the prices remain stubbornly high (3-4 years old still in the high 50s, irrespective of brand).

This is a long diatribe to say I'm not sure. There is some value in fixing and reusing the current ICE (we take the Taycan on longer trips within populated areas) while waiting for the inevitable advent of mass EVification. There is promise on the PHEV route, though failure stats match my anecdotal observations/thoughts, and I'm not keen on the price of admission required to find out firsthand if these stats are correct. It's clear the Taycan will not go anywhere (except, of course, on every trip, solo or with family, that I can reasonably assert is doable - stay tuned), and it is certain it will remain the sole EV in the garage at this time. Meanwhile I'm researching techniques of addressing timing cover leaks which don't entail engine removal.

 

[laua]

I agree with most here. Hybrid seems like a risky gamble in terms of reliability especially from German marques. I’ve had five cars prior to the Taycan, including two VWs and a BMW (all ICE of course). All had powertrain issues at ~8 year mark that cost more to fix than the car was worth. Can’t imagine it would be any better if it were a hybrid.

I suspect the reason hybrids have been reliable to date is because they are Toyotas, not because they’re hybrid. I’d definitely consider something like a PHEV Lexus LS or GS, or dare I imagine, a PHEV Supra, or 86.

 

[f1eng]

I suspect the reason hybrids have been reliable to date is because they are Toyotas, not because they’re hybrid.

Probably, but the Toyota hybrid system is extremely elegant and clever (patented) system which has less to go wrong than even a normal IC engined car.

Most hybrids are a bodge with additional electric parts added to an ordinary power train, making it more complicated, heavier and inevitably statistically less reliable.

My wife and I both have PHEV Prius which are excellent and certainly the Prius was superior on key parameters to the Porsche PHEV I compared it too.

I will never own a SUV and find Toyotas better looking than Lexus (the ones imported to the UK) so currently there isn't a new PHEV I could buy here

 

[bj33813]

Hey, in the US you might just want to wait as the closer we get to climate hell, the govt may BUY that vehicle for you!

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

This certainly won't be a popular opinion on this forum, but I think PHEV's are more likely to really take over the US market vs EV's. I've given my wife's GLE 450e as an example. This car is really something - it's the go-to car on any of our longer trips. 450-500 miles range with a full charge. Around town, the electric motor is good for 50-60 miles, which is 90% of daily driving. We didn't put gas in for the first month. You get a big part of the benefit of an EV 90% of the time, and you get almost none of the disadvantages.

Ford just announced they'll be dumping EV's and converting their entire line to PHEV's, and Porsche is moving in the same direction - but not as severe. I do believe this is something that will be adopted by most US and European mfg.'s.

 

[d00d]

As EV range aor DC charging infrastructure increases, the perceived need for PHEVs will decrease.
Choose ICE or EV, I'd never buy a PHEV because of the ICE maintenance time sink.

 

[SoccerMan94043]

I have to assume this forum is a bit of an echo chamber (most of us are pro EV). But EVs make way too much sense now much less in the future (instant torque, low maintenance, etc.), so I think it will have to be the prevalent platform of the future (unless some better, new tech comes along).

We may not be buying them from the US or EU makers, but we will be buying them, imo.

 

[69Mach390]

This certainly won't be a popular opinion on this forum, but I think PHEV's are more likely to really take over the US market vs EV's. I've given my wife's GLE 450e as an example. This car is really something - it's the go-to car on any of our longer trips. 450-500 miles range with a full charge. Around town, the electric motor is good for 50-60 miles, which is 90% of daily driving. We didn't put gas in for the first month. You get a big part of the benefit of an EV 90% of the time, and you get almost none of the disadvantages.

Ford just announced they'll be dumping EV's and converting their entire line to PHEV's, and Porsche is moving in the same direction - but not as severe. I do believe this is something that will be adopted by most US and European mfg.'s.

I think the popularity of your premise depends a lot on your use case and where you live.

If you live outside a major city and in the US, you’re way more likely to drive farther, faster and tow or haul stuff.

In places like Europe with higher population density and better infrastructure, it’s a different story.

In the US, PHEv solves pretty much every concern people have about EVs.

Personally I would rather have a EV with a range extender than a PHev, because one of the best things about an EV is how it drives. Instant power, something that the PHev can’t mimic.

Is it more complicated and just a stepping stone? Yes. But it’s way more likely to get to 100% adoption than pure EV.

And you don’t really need all the extra expensive DC charging infrastructure.

**correction- Ford is just dumping their EV truck the Lightning for now. Mach E is currently safe. They’re replacing it with an EREV model like I just suggested above- https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...of-f-150-lightning-erev-next-gen-model.33426/

 

[Sar]

Why is this even a serious topic in 2025 when EV charging stations are so fast and plentiful? It's not like you're abandoned on the side of the road when your EV runs out of range. And you get to fill it with a (much? depending on where you live) cheaper fuel than a gas/PHEV car.

 

[Scandinavian]

Ford just announced they'll be dumping EV's and converting their entire line to PHEV's, and Porsche is moving in the same direction - but not as severe. I do believe this is something that will be adopted by most US and European mfg.'s.

I understood this to be the case for Ford’s F150. And from what I read it still is an EV drive train and more of a range extender? Ford will focus on smaller more forcible EV’s is my interpretation?

Interesting with the EV with range extenders though. BMW was head of that with the i3!

 

[69Mach390]

Why is this even a serious topic in 2025 when EV charging stations are so fast and plentiful? It's not like you're abandoned on the side of the road when your EV runs out of range. And you get to fill it with a (much? depending on where you live) cheaper fuel than a gas/PHEV car.

Because they’re still slow and not plentiful and DC charging isn’t really cheaper.

Your experience in Seattle isn’t the same as the rest of the country.

And when 1/3 of the US doesn’t own a home, charging on the road is their only option with an EV and that becomes even more important.

EVs are awesome if you can charge from home and almost never on the road.

If I drive south, there are exactly 5 DC chargers within 150 miles south of me that would be useful (I don’t count the 9 within 13 miles of home).

1 is 48 miles away……. And there is literally only 1. If it’s full? Tough luck.

No chance I’m going to rely on a SINGLE charger being available for a road trip.

And in that search area I’m looking at? Several million people live in that area.

 

[f1eng]

Interesting with the EV with range extenders though. BMW was head of that with the i3!

The range extender ruined the i3 though, 200kg heavier much slower and didn't add much range.
Wisely dropped, but the market gets what it deserves, not what is best...
We have 2 PHEVs as well as the Taycan and I like them but most, in fact all other than those with the patented Toyota hybrid system, are too complex to be good engineering and one still has all the complexity, and lubricant destroying features, of a piston engine.

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