Have cars always electronically limited speed to sell the next model up?

[Stoneageman]

Hello all, I think a lot of us agree that Porsche has limited the power of each model in order to sell the next tier up. For example, 4s could be faster but limited to sell GTS and Turbo. Turbo could be faster but limited to sell Turbo S. I am not sure if this is true fact because I am not a Porsche engineer but it does feel that way. I am curious to if manufactures have been doing that even with ICE. Like the 911 base can reach the same speed as the S but electronically limited to sell the S. Correct me if I am wrong, I do not have a lot of knowledge on this topic. Although I am glad Porsche hasn’t gone down to the level of Mercedes with a subscription to unlock more power.

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[masmole]

From my understanding:
Taycan, CT, and 4S all have the same rear motor and CT and 4S have same front motor (no front motor on rwd Taycan)
GTS, Turbo, Turbo S all have the same larger rear motor, and power output is limited by software based on model.

 

[Stoneageman]

From my understanding:
Taycan, CT, and 4S all have the same rear motor and CT and 4S have same front motor (no front motor on rwd Taycan)
GTS, Turbo, Turbo S all have the same larger rear motor, and power output is limited by software based on model.

Doesn’t that make buying the turbo or turbo s feel bad? Cause you’re buying essentially the exact same thing just paying more money for them to enter a different value on the computer.

 

[Throb]

Hello all, I think a lot of us agree that Porsche has limited the power of each model in order to sell the next tier up. For example, 4s could be faster but limited to sell GTS and Turbo. Turbo could be faster but limited to sell Turbo S. I am not sure if this is true fact because I am not a Porsche engineer but it does feel that way. I am curious to if manufactures have been doing that even with ICE. Like the 911 base can reach the same speed as the S but electronically limited to sell the S. Correct me if I am wrong, I do not have a lot of knowledge on this topic. Although I am glad Porsche hasn’t gone down to the level of Mercedes with a subscription to unlock more power.

With ICE cars, it's not just about horsepower. Gearing can play a part too.
However, some manufacturers do put basically the same engine in different models and the ECU is programmed to only permit a certain amount of power. Look at BMW with their 318i, 320i, 330i models.

 

[masmole]

Doesn’t that make buying the turbo or turbo s feel bad? Cause you’re buying essentially the exact same thing just paying more money for them to enter a different value on the computer.

Not really. Most buyers simply don’t look at it that way, or even care. Turbo and Turbo S come with a lot more stuff as standard equipment, in addition to unlocking the higher level of performance from the electric motors from the factory and be under warranty. GTS is more of the value proposition in terms of performance in the lineup. There are compelling reasons to go with each of these models depending on customer wants and needs, and Porsche is a master at capitalizing on this.

 

[Dan1923]

It may be that the electronic speed limit is set by the type of tire on the car. I haven't looked at it on my Taycan 4S, but on my BMW X5 and X3 the electronic speed limit was set by the tire type you entered into the settings.

Hello all, I think a lot of us agree that Porsche has limited the power of each model in order to sell the next tier

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Hello all, I think a lot of us agree that Porsche has limited the power of each model in order to sell the next tier up. [...] I am curious to if manufactures have been doing that even with ICE. Like the 911 base can reach the same speed as the S but electronically limited to sell the S.

Back in the day, manufacturers used different engines to achieve this effect.

Seriously, though, the differences between base and 'S' of past 911 generations were significant - different body, engine, brakes and even incompatible suspensions. It was - at the time - tremendous value for the price difference. It's very hard to justify the same differences now across models of an EV.

(edited for clarity)

 

[OTPSkipper]

The motor may be the same in several cases, but I doubt the whole system of battery/electronics/motors are identical. Marketing sets the performance levels for each model. It is up to engineering to implement each level cost effectively which includes design and tooling costs. It also means there has to be hack prevention if some component is used on multiple models to prevent hackers from field upgrading performance.

to attain a certain acceleration takes a certain power delivery to the motor. These high powers are delivered by gangs of power components. Each vehicle level will have only enough power components installed to deliver the power needed for that trim level. So even if the motors are the same, the car is not the same.

it moves on to other systems. Those power components must be cooled. More power means more cooling capacity.

 

[Genau]

From my understanding:
Taycan, CT, and 4S all have the same rear motor and CT and 4S have same front motor (no front motor on rwd Taycan)
GTS, Turbo, Turbo S all have the same larger rear motor, and power output is limited by software based on model.

You are leaving out the huge difference in power inverters between these models. This topic comes up on the forum on average every 1-2 months, and people always gravitate towards the idea that Porsche is just doing the software limiting as a money grab, until someone posts the technical specs showing the hardware differences, particularly the 300 amp vs 600 amp inverters installed in the front. The hardware difference to handle 300 amps vs 600 amps at 800 volts is not small. The much higher power inverter presumably also required larger cables and more cooling. There are probably other design impacts.

From the Porsche press kit:

Pulse-controlled inverters control the motors​

The pulse controlled inverter is the most important component for controlling the electric motors. In the Taycan Turbo and Turbo S, a pulse-controlled inverter is mounted on each drive module on the front and rear axles. The pulse-controlled inverters convert the direct current supplied by the Performance Battery Plus into the alternating current required to drive the electric motors. The reverse happens during braking: Here they convert the alternating current obtained during recuperation into direct current for charging the battery. In the Taycan Turbo S, a pulse-controlled inverter with a maximum current of 600 amps is used on the front axle, which can generate even more power and torque than the 300-amp, pulse-controlled inverter of the Taycan Turbo. Both pulse-controlled inverters operate with a remarkably high efficiency of almost 98 per cent.​

 

[f1eng]

Hello all, I think a lot of us agree that Porsche has limited the power of each model in order to sell the next tier up. For example, 4s could be faster but limited to sell GTS and Turbo. Turbo could be faster but limited to sell Turbo S. I am not sure if this is true fact because I am not a Porsche engineer but it does feel that way. I am curious to if manufactures have been doing that even with ICE. Like the 911 base can reach the same speed as the S but electronically limited to sell the S. Correct me if I am wrong, I do not have a lot of knowledge on this topic. Although I am glad Porsche hasn’t gone down to the level of Mercedes with a subscription to unlock more power.

It isn't just the motors, there may be other parts of the wiring and inverters which are different.
The 4S is probably close to the limit of the smaller rear motor performance since the GTS, which isn't much more powerful, uses the bigger rear motor (which seems just to be a longer rotor in the same housing so saving parts inventory).

The Turbo and Turbo S only differ, power wise, in launch mode, the steady power is the same and the big difference is the higher current front inverter and cabling.
It would be a pointless choice for me since I never use launch control but it has a lot of included options too, which will appeal to many people.

The GTS is the odd one, for me, it has the big motor but not much more power than a 4S.

With IC engined cars there is a much smaller range of adjustability without parts change because they only work fairly efficiently over a very narrow engine speed range.

With a normally aspirated engine a bit more power can be obtained at the cost of fuel efficiency and emissions by changing the ECU programme but not something I would do.

With a turbo engine there is far more potential just by increasing boost and re-mapping fuel and ignition to suit, but there are other limits too. Has the car got a powerful enough ignition system to be effective at higher boost? Can the fuel system deliver the extra fuel? Is the cooling system up to it?

I chose the 4S because, for me, it was the sweet spot for performance v price. I don't think it is performance limited, or not by much.
My second choice was the Turbo, which is the other sweet spot, power wise, but wasn't worth the extra to me for my usage.

The other models may be at a sweet spot for options rather than power though.

 

[kokos]

I had the same question/curiosity -- while no doubt some electronic limiting might be occurring, I read the Audi E-Tron "Self-study programme SSP 684" to find out more details. While these might not be identical to the Taycan, I bet they are quite close. Large and small motors have the same physical appearance -- in fact you can't tell them apart other than the part-numbers. Front and rear differ of course.

What they do instead they vary the amount of laminates and magnets they install on the rotor, which effectively reduces magnetic flux, which in turn reduces torque and reduces peak power. Quite clever as they are reusing the housing of the motor and all associated components, but producing two different motors. I bet the magnets they use are also a significant cost contributor for the motor (albeit not as much to cover the price delta between a 4S and a GTS for example).

The EDC might be exactly the same board with binning for cheaper models (CT 4 vs CT4S), or a board with less components (e.g., MOSFETs) populated in the same exact housing to output 300A vs 600A. I am just speculating here -- but I doubt they will be designing 4-5 different part numbers to match their car line-up.

Guide is here -- juicy details start on page 19.

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