interesting contrast…Lucid air inventory "deals"

[whitex]

^ Interesting, thanks, the timing of the CT intro at the peak of the market can explain the reluctance of sellers to adjust prices down to the market-clearing level (a la the sunk cost fallacy).

It's not exactly sunk cost if in fact there is limited supply. If you're selling a used 2022 Taycan sedan, there are more of them than 2022 CTs, there is also a decent supply of 2021 and 2020 Taycans competing, not present for CT. I get there is some sunk cost fallacy happening with people who paid $30K ADM's mid pandemic, but people in 2021 and 2020 did not pay ADM's so any 2022 sedan priced based on original ADM is just going to sit. Used 2023/2024 CT's will bring 2022's down.

As for taxes, I never used to pay much attention to MA state sales tax on cars despite having bought, let's see, I think 11 cars in this state since 1991, but now that I've been buying increasingly expensive cars, whoah, that 6.25% sure is a financial incentive not to switch cars frequently!

LOL, try almost 11% in WA state sales tax, then over 1% value every year (as per government depreciation table which is laughable, 95% MSRP value for second year for example - I've bought new cars under 95% MSRP).

PS> It's funny how some dealers try to perpetuate the ADM and shortages story. Swung by a dealer possibly interested in an car for my wife. They had one in stock which was close enough to what I wanted (had a couple of extra features, but everything I wanted, but manufacturer also has cashback offer, which the dealer neglected to inform me about btw, in effect which would almost pay for the extra features, so I figured why not, the car is on the lot), but they stuck to ADM story (first $7.5K, then $5K), so I walked away, I never buy cars when I need them, so that I can always walk away. I never paid over MSRP yet, not even on a Taycan. Got a call a week later that they'd consider an MSRP offer. LOL, I politely told them my MSRP offer was only valid when I was there, I now want $5K under MSRP, the guy seemed offended (I don't know why, they tried to squeeze me for $5K ADM, now I want to squeeze them for the same). I wonder if he'll call back (probably won't, even if willing to sell to someone else at $5K discount, but I'm ok with that, will try again in the fall, possibly get an even better deal, if not, next year works too). I respect their right to ask any price they want, so I would not be offended if they asked for a billion dollar ADM, but they should not be offended if I offer them less - it's just a business negotiation, each side trying to maximize deal value.

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[Jonathan S.]

^ Whoah, higher car sales tax rate combined with more slowly depreciating valuation basis -- this almost hurts my pride as a Taxachusetts resident!

Agreed that the high used 4CT asking prices could reflect not a sunk cost fallacy but instead reflect a realistic market-clearing price if demand is still relatively strong (especially given that the e-tron GT lacks an Allroad variant, the i5 Touring has yet to be introduced plus might never be available here, and the A6 e-tron has yet to be unveiled, leaving no direct competition for a mid-sized non-SUV EV with a hatch other than the Model S) and supply is still limited (given the relatively late introduction of the CT) -- will be interesting to see what happens in the coming months.

I always wonder if dealers like the one you negotiated with are genuinely upset if they're just acting out a script (like the corporate law firm partners who depose me).

Also reminds me a funny story in another forum about swinging by some random dealership that had ~$10k ADM this spring on a mainstream compact SUV. "Why so high?" "Supply and demand!" "But you have three of them and I know they've been sitting here for months..."

 

[Jonathan S.]

Off topic - but sort of relevant.....

I just read an article in the FT on Chinese car manufacturers and their desires to replicate in Europe what they have achieved at home. In a very short space of time.

This could be a huge gamechanger and disrupter to the established car industry, for better or worse.

What they have achieved in China in the last decade is remarkable.

Article here :
https://www.ft.com/content/fddc1c5b-7494-4f0c-94cd-0409d7e9df70

I've been wondering why none of those are sold here yet, especially the marques from Geely, given that as the owner of Volvo & Polestar the U.S. market is not some big unknown to Geely.
I'm old enough to remember feeling sorry for anyone who bought a Hyundai, given that the explanation had to be some combination of financial desperation and automotive ignorance. But now Hyundai and Kia are comparable to all the mainstream Japanese marques (even if their dealerships are often disgraceful), and Genesis (even if this assessment might get me banned here!) is a reasonable alternative for many buyers to Audi, MB, BMW, and (dare I say it?) Porsche (for a typically configured base Macan that I see at Whole Foods).

 

[whitex]

leaving no direct competition for a mid-sized non-SUV EV with a hatch other than the Model S)

Also the EQS. While it looks a little bland, on the inside it’s like a luxury Model S (similar size, way more options, higher quality materials).

 

[whitex]

I always wonder if dealers like the one you negotiated with are genuinely upset if they're just acting out a script (like the corporate law firm partners who depose me).

Yea, I always wondered too. The funniest yet was one time, way before COVID, they were asking MSRP, I offered the dealer 3% under the MSRP as that seemed to be the going rate at the time, sales guy goes to the sales manager office and comes back with, wait for it, 5% over MSRP. I asked if it was a mistake, since the price was higher than original asking price, but was told the sales manager was so offended he will only sell me at 5% above MSRP. It might have been a ploy to get me to beg to go back to MSRP, I don't know since I told the sales guy we're too far apart and left. IIRC I got a call from few days later but I already bought a car at another dealer, so we never got to talking price.

The lowest tactic I've ever encountered was I negotiated a price for a car in transit, put down a deposit, got a call next day that they will not honor the negotiated price and want more money. I said no, they refunded my deposit. Spoke with an attorney, they do have that right. Spoke with the customer service of the manufacturer, got $900 appreciation cashback (direct from manufacturer, dealer did not even know) if I bought another car of theirs from any other dealer, which I did. That was almost 20 years ago. I never bought another car from that dealer since, or any other ones owned by the same group. I have no problems negotiating, harball or whatever, but this re-negotiation after signing the deal just left a real bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Hirschaj]

the sales manager was so offended he will only sell me at 5% above MSRP.

did you send that guy a photo of you with your new car flipping them the bird?

 

[Jonathan S.]

Also the EQS. While it looks a little bland, on the inside it’s like a luxury Model S (similar size, way more options, higher quality materials).

Good point, thanks, I forgot about that -- perhaps somewhat deliberately so, since although the EQS ticks off many boxes, I just can't even imagine myself driving an MB given the marque's image.
Plus the driving dynamics of the EQS sound ... odd. (Especially when both CR & C&D intensely dislike something so basic as the brakes!)

 

[whitex]

did you send that guy a photo of you with your new car flipping them the bird?

Neh, I had nothing prove to him. I did mention I got a new car already when they called back, but only so that we can finish the conversation and so they don' t keep on calling.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Neh, I had nothing prove to him. I did mention I got a new car already when they called back, but only so that we can finish the conversation and so they don' t keep on calling.

Plus his underhanded sales tactics might have worked with someone else.
Especially since that TruCoat is worth it:

 

[whitex]

Plus his underhanded sales tactics might have worked with someone else.
Especially since that TruCoat is worth it:

Sad but true. That is why I never wait to buy a car until I absolutely need one. Longest price negotiation I ever had took over a month, and 3 visits to a Lexus dealer, each time they tried a different trick (e.g. oh look, we discounted the car $5K for you - then why did my 48 month loan payment only go down $10?). Funny coincidence, the negotiation ended with their version of TruCoat - some stick on stripes they added $799 for AFTER we agreed on the final price (story was the sales guy didn't know the car had stripes). They proceeded to lower it to $599, then $399, eventually free, but I actually didn't want them, so made them take them off. I bet most people just pay the full price and not even notice, and a large portion of those who notice are happy to get at an apparent discount since it seems so small compared to the cost of the car. This is why some places instituted 24-hour lots.

 

[f1eng]

Yea, I always wondered too. The funniest yet was one time, way before COVID, they were asking MSRP, I offered the dealer 3% under the MSRP as that seemed to be the going rate at the time, sales guy goes to the sales manager office and comes back with, wait for it, 5% over MSRP. I asked if it was a mistake, since the price was higher than original asking price, but was told the sales manager was so offended he will only sell me at 5% above MSRP. It might have been a ploy to get me to beg to go back to MSRP, I don't know since I told the sales guy we're too far apart and left. IIRC I got a call from few days later but I already bought a car at another dealer, so we never got to talking price.

The lowest tactic I've ever encountered was I negotiated a price for a car in transit, put down a deposit, got a call next day that they will not honor the negotiated price and want more money. I said no, they refunded my deposit. Spoke with an attorney, they do have that right. Spoke with the customer service of the manufacturer, got $900 appreciation cashback (direct from manufacturer, dealer did not even know) if I bought another car of theirs from any other dealer, which I did. That was almost 20 years ago. I never bought another car from that dealer since, or any other ones owned by the same group. I have no problems negotiating, harball or whatever, but this re-negotiation after signing the deal just left a real bad taste in my mouth.

I had a similar experience with a house.

I agreed a price with the purchaser and when the contract was just about to be signed he came back with a lower offer, presumably assuming I was so committed I would have to take it, but it was a second house I had been renting out and just told the agent to put the house back on the market.

It turned out the dodgy bloke was the Financial Director of a large local company and he had already ordered new windows for the whole house so he was, thankfully, “screwed”.

He said he would pay the original agreed price but I told him it was back on the market at the original asking price - which he ended up having to pay.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Stripes on a Lexus?!?

 

[mcr21]

Also the EQS. While it looks a little bland, on the inside it’s like a luxury Model S (similar size, way more options, higher quality materials).

Had an EQS 450+ for an extended test drive, and it definitely feels (close) to an S-class in the driving experience i.e. fantastically smooth and comfortable though the RAS took a while to get used to. Generally also find the interior in MB a bit plastic.

Somewhat disappointed with the acceleration and general power output on the one engine model (450+), especially given that it starts at around USD $145k (GBP 115k) in the UK.

 

[daveo4EV]

Lucid's engineering is world class - industry leading - no doubt…we'll need more of this - but I still hate their designs…

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/zf-369-hp-electric-drive-210000986.html

ZF's new drive unit indicates that, despite being a cash incinerator as of late, Lucid's core technology is far ahead of its competitors.

@f1eng I'm hoping you find the article interesting - they go into some details about the integrated gear sets…

also interesting ZF is "testing" their motor in a Taycan (modified obviously) - but very very interesting - I'd love some speculation on efficiency improvements - my lifetime average of 3 mi/kWh is pretty decent, but not the 4 to 4.5 I see with other EV's…

The German supplier is currently testing this drive unit in a Porsche Taycan, which it calls the EVbeat.

 

[daveo4EV]

best in the business…

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/lucid-tech-talk-videos-best-170049949.html

the tech talks are excellent by any standard…well worth a watch.

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