Dee
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If you’re after no dust then Porsche offers their special coated disks (come with white callipers).Im no engineer and def not a track star. but do I love those Ceramic brakes. virtually no brake dust! yes i know 10 k for no brake dust must be a joke to som, but really those breaks are rad as hell! I hope I am able to get ceramic brakes and Air suspension on every future car i get.
That is highly exaggerated.The big issue with ceramic brakes is that they are very brittle. So if you like to change your wheels and tyres yourself (say just before going on track, to fit some Cup R tyres) if the wheel touches the rotor then the brakes are successible to cracks.
I don’t have ceramics and have never experienced it myself, however I’ve seen many track rats retrofit their ceramic brake cars with iron rotors; just google “iron retrofit brakes Porsche” and you’ll see for yourself. Despite the lower fading, longer life etc people chose to pay extra for an iron kit and get it fitted. Of course professional race teams don’t do this, because ceramics are better. But everyday joes know that a small mistake will cost them the equivalent of 2-3 iron kits so they chose the safer routeThat is highly exaggerated.
Although CC is very hard, like diamond, it doesn't crack that easily.
Only if you pinpoint lateral force on the disc it may crack on the adapter ring but then again: very unlikely.
It's really hard but also very durable.
Still, it's always a good idea to be careful.
Agree but that's just from a financial standpoint.I don’t have ceramics and have never experienced it myself, however I’ve seen many track rats retrofit their ceramic brake cars with iron rotors; just google “iron retrofit brakes Porsche” and you’ll see for yourself. Despite the lower fading, longer life etc people chose to pay extra for an iron kit and get it fitted. Of course professional race teams don’t do this, because ceramics are better. But everyday joes know that a small mistake will cost them the equivalent of 2-3 iron kits so they chose the safer route
• - NOTE: quite a few of Porsche's actual race cars do NOT come/option ceramics - so even Porsche does not spec PCCB's on actual race cars!! The 911 CupCars and GT4 Clubsports (non-street legal dedicated race cars) do NOT come with PCCB's. A I'm hard pressed to find a race car where even Porsche for it's own factory racing uses PCCB's - a few Porsche race cars use PCCB's but only the one's they are entering in endurance races (which makes sense).Pure and simple - Taycan lacks enough endurance to _NEED_ ceramics with the Battery's capacity and thermal limits being the major limiting factor
- Porsche's cast iron brakes are excellent - truly industry leading excellent
- All brakes are equal when they are 100% cool
- All brakes are equal _IF_ you can keep them cool between usage
- Porsche invests a lot of design and reduced fuel efficiency to cool their brakes (more aero drag to cool brakes)
- Brakes cool between brake pedal applications "recovering" their effectiveness
- so the question is - how much do I need to use the brakes to overwhelm Porsche's very very effective cooling and rotor designs
- the Answer is _A LOT_ for Porsche's excellent cast-iron brakes - 30 to 40 min of full pace track driving…
- PCCB's can absorb MORE thermal energy than cast-iron brakes - the question is how much energy does it take to "overwhelm" the thermal capacity of cast-iron brake to get into "brake fade"
- the answer again is _A LOT_ of driving at way more than 100 mph top speeds, with back to back brake pedal applications from very high speeds, and then rinse, lather, repeat
- this type of usage is very difficult if not impossible in road driving - even spirited road driving
- and lots and lots of cooling opportunities in "road driving" "recovering" the brake's thermal capacity
- Porsche's cast iron brakes on all their vehicles are torture tested to experience no brake fade under conditions you will never encounter in _ANY_ street driving circumstances - even spirited driving
- PCCB's super power is "thermal endurance" - lack of brake fade after long periods of high brake usage
- tapping in to this super power requires a LOT more than spirited driving
- it requires dedicated full pace "Lapping" on a driving circuit with back to back to back brake usage
- the Taycan does not have enough battery power _OR_ enough battery thermal endurance to drive it hard enough and long enough to overwhelm Porsche's excellent cast iron brakes (normal or PCSB)
- PCCB's are 100% waste of money on this vehicle
- between Regen handling 90% of deceleration on average over the life of the vehicle
- limited power capacity and battery-thermal endurance
- brake fade on the Taycan with cast iron brakes in any street driving circumstance is _NOT_ a thing
- even if you track your Taycan it can't be on track long enough and driven hard enough to overwhelm the cast iron brakes _BEFORE_ you'll run out of battery (either power or thermal endurance)
- I've tracked my 2018 911 GT3 (and other's since 2009) with and with out ceramics - it takes me over 30 min on track at full pace to overwhelm Porsche's cast-iron brakes - 30 minute of FULL PACE lapping to experience some brake fade
- of course my ceramics are better - but I'm rarely on track at full pace for more than 30 min
- Taycan can't be on track for 30 min - it will run out of actual power or battery thermal limits before the cast iron brakes are an issue
- given on track consumption at full pace - my experience @ Laguna is you're down on power due to battery thermal limts chopping throttle power after about 15 min on track
- you are also down 53% battery in the same time period
- the Taycan lacks sufficient battery power capacity to be on track long enough for brake fade to be an issue
- the Taycan lacks sufficient battery thermal capacity to be on track long enough for brake fade to be an issue (before it will reach max battery temp and limit your throttle to help the battery remain cool)
- most "track days" lapping sessions are 20 min or less through out the day
- Also being 5,100 lbs - _ANY_ street tire you're running will be greasy and overwhelmed and losing grip long before Porsche's cast-iron brakes at anywhere near their thermal capacity limits
- once your tires are overwhelmed and greasy (in about 12 min with Taycan) you no longer can achieve maximum braking effectiveness and again will not be taxing Porsche's excellent cast-iron brakes thermal capacity
- and before you say "but but but Nurbergring…" - a ring lap is 8 min or less - and Porsche says nothing about Taycan's ability to run 2 laps back to back - in fact Porsche has NEVER disclosed consumption numbers for Taycan @ the ring…
- based on my direct tracking experience the MOST Taycan could run would be 2 laps before running out of power - I think it's more like 1.8 laps based on my experience consumption numbers
- Pro drivers will consume more power not less than track rats like myself - so less battery capacity vs. lapping
- higher battery discharge rates = more battery heat = battery thermal limits sooner = power reduction sooner = no longer need peak braking effectiveness if you have lost 60% of your throttle capacity
- no one needs PCCB's for less than 15 min of full pace/max-performance driving which is about all the Taycan can muster (probably less if you could run it down to 2% battery or less)
- Start at 100% battery - drive as fast as you can on track - any track - with no pause and two things happen to the Taycan
- one you're consuming a sh*t ton of power - i'm down 50% battery in less than 6 laps @ laguna seca
- you will heat up the Taycan's battery - once it hits 132F temperature - you no longer have full capacity on your throttle to let the battery cool
- lack of full throtlle = lack of full pace = much easier on the brakes (allowing them to cool)
- I was at the Porsche Experience Center this past tuesday - I did the Taycan experience for the fun of it - you get 90 min out on "track" at PECLA - during of that 90 min about 12-15 of it was "on track" at full pace
- of the remaining time it's slow drifting, launch control, etc - nothing that would tax the brakes
- the non-lapping circuits are not brake heavy - skid pad, launch control, kick plate, etc…
- I got two separate full pace laps chasing a 911 Turbo (lead follow) on PECLA's full circuit (fun course)
- We were at tire grip limits given G-meter reads and Porsche instructor feedback - we were also the fastest two cars out on track at the time - we were moving!!
- we would do about 6 laps before "cooling down the car" - both the Taycan and the 911 TurboS (instructor's car)
- So I did 12-14 laps @ PECLA - in two separate "lapping sessions" in one 90 min period - lead/follow with a 911 Turbo and the Taycan kept up - impressive - less than 20 min full pace run time
- my PECLA sessions started 98% battery
- 90 min later my Battery in PECLA's Taycan Turbo S (after 14 or fewer laps) was 17%
- instructor noted that most PECLA student come in from Taycan 90 min session at 50% to 60% battery - we came in at 17% battery because of our very very high lapping pace on the lapping circuit
- let's call it 15 laps maximum (probably 13-14) - down to 17% battery
- no vehicle requires PCCB's for less than 20 or 30 laps for Porsche quality brakes
- the Taycan can't run long enough to need PCCB's - even at a Porsche facility - you'll run out of battery before you'll run out of brakes
- if that is NOT the case - if you are not running out of battery - well then you're not at full pace are you - which means you're using less brakes…which means cast iron will last that much longer
- basically if you're driving hard enough to need PCCB's, you're also draining the battery at a ferocious pace, and also heating it up at a ferocious pace - and you will run out of _IT_ (battery) before you overwhelm the brakes
- if you're not draining the battery at a ferocious pace, you're also not using the brakes all that much - so cast-iron will not overheat.
optioning PCCB"s on a Taycan is waste of money - I will not do it again. They are great brakes, but unnecessary on most gas cars, but gas cars actually do have enough endurance to tap out of cast-iron brake thermal capacity - but completely unnecessary with a heavy Regen EV that can't be on track long enough to matter in terms of braking capacity.
Taycan has about 15 min of full pace driving (and braking) before something will limit you (either power capacity or battery thermals) - no one needs PCCB's for 15 min or less of full pace driving - and factually that is what the Taycan can do. I ran out of power at PECLA in less than 15 laps and we had to retire the vehicle to literally recharge it. I'm down to 47% battery or less in less than 7 laps at laguna seca and battery temp has maxed at 132F chopping throttle capacity - 7 laps - this requires you to bring the vehicle in for both battery cooling and charging - cooling the brakes while it sits charging. You do not need PCCB's for 7 laps.
You do not need (or can even utilize) world class braking thermal endurance (PCCB's) in a vehicle that can't even run long enough for a traditional sprint race (20-25 min).
you will run out of the following things on track BEFORE you can overheat Porsche's cast iron brakes:
- Battery Thermal capacity
- Battery power
- Tire grip due to overheating the tires - heavy car + street tires = lost grip levels pretty quickly
- actual track session time (checkered flag at start/finish)
- driver fatigue unless you get paid to drive fast professionally
yeah - 5,100 lbs car - the unsprung weight advantage of PCCB's probably isn't it's biggest problem.Different application but I converted my R8 from irons to CCBs - braking is better, but it's not where I noticed a night and day difference, and that isn't hyperbole.
Unsprung weight being reduced brought the car to life. And it was highly noticeable. Every corner, every bump, every maneuver I could feel significant difference in the feedback through the steering wheel and the overall capabilities with the car. Where it might have been fussy, it just isn't anymore.
And, this makes sense.
No matter how much you reduce weight if the unsprung portion remains constant, it will take a LOT more weight reduction to have the same effect on the car's driving characteristics. getting a >100lbs reduction at wheel where weight remains tethered to the suspension is material. "waste of money" - thats an individual perspective. For me personally, it was money well spent and a great practical lesson on the impact of unsprung weight.
I don't think I would have processed how significant that change was without having the same car running through its paces before and after the update. So, feedback on one over the other without that experience (same car; same circumstance; with and then without) I just simply wouldn't have known what I know now to be true.
Lastly, there is a LOT of unsprung weight in the Taycan set up. The brakes and rotors are just massive and the wheels are much heavier than any Porsche set up Ive experienced (see the post on weight Terrence did comparing stock to his Signature wheel package). My guess is that there is about 180 lbs in weight savings having aftermarket wheels, PCCBs, titanium lugs etc. That would be noticeable in grip and feedback at the steering wheel...
That said, the Taycan is a big lady - you'll feel it, but it would be akin to having an NFL lineman strip weight for a marathon...they could do it, but it's probably not the best use of their skillset and the returns would be diminishing.
yeah, don't entirely disagree, but I'm not really focused on the reduction in weight as a performance advantage.yeah - 5,100 lbs car - the unsprung weight advantage of PCCB's probably isn't it's biggest problem.