Part 2: The J1 Powertrain

[prj]

What is the cost going to be?
If the config is reverted back to original, can Porsche service centre know ?

Price will be 2499 EUR incl. VAT (+shipping) in the EU, 2499 USD (+ shipping) in the US. Asian pricing will also be roughly in the ballpark.
This already includes a brand new ASG unit coded to your car.

As long as you fit your standard unit back, and preferrably clear the DTC's before taking it in, then Porsche will not know that the unit was swapped.

However, if you modify your existing unit, then Porsche knows it has been modified (which is why I don't even offer this option). They are choosing not to pursue it right now (the car is not flagged TD1 even if the ASG has been flashed with unsigned software), but they can change their mind at any time and void your warranty. In my opinion it's insane to gamble on the warranty when a battery replacement is 50 grand.

The dealer does not care whether your car is tuned or not, they're not out to get you, and they love to work on your car because they make money on that. The problem is that Audi (or Porsche) refuse to pay the dealer for warranty work if the car is flagged TD1. There is of course no actual basis for this - modifications to the ASG can not really damage anything, but there does not need to be any actual valid reason.

In-depth information about how the "tuning detection" works on VAG, and the expose of "undetectable modification" fairytales told by various companies will be in Part 3.

Before the newest generation control units, which have the (generally) inaccessible HSM, the tuning detection was performed by the main processor, and of course it was possible to bypass that and just tell PIWIS/ODIS that everything is fine and dandy - I made a lot of money selling that solution. This is no longer the case though.

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[BjörnfromHamburg]

Hi!
What does "clear the DTC's" mean?

 

[prj]

Hi!
What does "clear the DTC's" mean?

It means clearing the fault code memory on the car. Even if the car is in sleep (busruhe), then when you connect an ASG, then the ASG wakes up for a moment, and then everything is full of errors. These are not displayed anywhere on the dash, but they are visible in diagnostics.

You can see Part 1 here:
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/part-1-mapev-diag.25758/

Using a BMW ENET Cable and my free software, you can scan your car and clear the codes.

 

[BjörnfromHamburg]

Thanks! Thought so...

 

[Mr.Smith]

What are the negatives to doing an upgrade? Would it increase hardware or battery wear?

If the Invcon has so many protections in place, why doesn't Porsche just give full power all the time, like Lucid or Tesla?
I assume to reduce battery overheating on track applications?

 

[prj]

What are the negatives to doing an upgrade? Would it increase hardware or battery wear?

No.

If the Invcon has so many protections in place, why doesn't Porsche just give full power all the time, like Lucid or Tesla?

But they do.
The Taycan Turbo S and the Taycan RWD with Performance Battery Plus have full power in launch control. So we know all the inverter/motor variants can take it, and the battery can take it.

The reason they don't is actually outlined in the post:

This is why the "big daddy" variants are limited to 625 PS outside of launch mode - to give them consistent power without regard for the SoC.

And of course for the other variants such as the GTS, 4S and 4 - this is purely a marketing decision to be able to sell the higher powered cars.
If the 4S could do 730 PS from factory, and then the Turbo S is 800 PS, but only at 100% SoC and at 75% SoC they are both the same. Who would buy the Turbo S? for 1.5x+ the price?

Unlike e.g. an Audi RS6 which has at least a very prominent bodykit over the Audi A6, all the Taycans look extremely similar. They changed that a little on the facelift now.

 

[ze_shark]

The added torque can only be conducive to higher stress on a number of components, and if there is a warranty allowance for that in the margin structure of the car, 4/4S/GTS surely contribute less than a Turbo S.

There is certainly a marketing motive in the layering of specs, but it strains common sense that 1050 Nm vs 600 Nm would make no difference on the probability of a warranty event.

 

[prj]

There is certainly a marketing motive in the layering of specs, but it strains common sense that 1050 Nm vs 600 Nm would make no difference on the probability of a warranty event.

1. If you read the post you will notice, that the torque is not (and can not be) significantly increased. So I do not understand the 600Nm vs 1050Nm comparison, as this can never ever happen. The 4S can never make 1050 Nm of torque, the maximum it can do is 660Nm.

2. In material science there are different thresholds of failure. Basically, as long as you are under the failure threshold it makes little difference if the torque is 50 Nm or 1000Nm.

3. Everything that concerns the power transmission is pretty much identical between even a 4S and Turbo S.

None of the cars (except the Taycan 4, but it's really a detuned 4S) gain more than 10% over their rated torque. The power increases substantially, yes, but power does not break stuff, torque does.

By your common sense theory, the cheapest model, the Taycan RWD would be the most likely to break, as it's running closest to the component limits from the factory out of all the cars. Does not really make much sense, does it?

 

[Rik_CT4s]

Price will be 2499 EUR incl. VAT (+shipping) in the EU, 2499 USD (+ shipping) in the US. Asian pricing will also be roughly in the ballpark.
This already includes a brand new ASG unit coded to your car.

As long as you fit your standard unit back, and preferrably clear the DTC's before taking it in, then Porsche will not know that the unit was swapped.

However, if you modify your existing unit, then Porsche knows it has been modified (which is why I don't even offer this option). They are choosing not to pursue it right now (the car is not flagged TD1 even if the ASG has been flashed with unsigned software), but they can change their mind at any time and void your warranty. In my opinion it's insane to gamble on the warranty when a battery replacement is 50 grand.

The dealer does not care whether your car is tuned or not, they're not out to get you, and they love to work on your car because they make money on that. The problem is that Audi (or Porsche) refuse to pay the dealer for warranty work if the car is flagged TD1. There is of course no actual basis for this - modifications to the ASG can not really damage anything, but there does not need to be any actual valid reason.

In-depth information about how the "tuning detection" works on VAG, and the expose of "undetectable modification" fairytales told by various companies will be in Part 3.

Before the newest generation control units, which have the (generally) inaccessible HSM, the tuning detection was performed by the main processor, and of course it was possible to bypass that and just tell PIWIS/ODIS that everything is fine and dandy - I made a lot of money selling that solution. This is no longer the case though.

"As long as you fit your standard unit back, and preferrably clear the DTC's before taking it in, then Porsche will not know that the unit was swapped"....

Just in the event that the car stands still (e.g. accident, 12V battery issues or other), I assume the ASG can still be swapped but perhaps codes may not be possible to clear (in certain events), would that be a potential issue....or is it not crucial in the process? Looking forward to part 3.
Very curious to hear your experience with the TS CT as I drive exactly the same type.
Cheers

 

[ct14garage]

There is certainly a marketing motive in the layering of specs, but it strains common sense that 1050 Nm vs 600 Nm would make no difference on the probability of a warranty event.

Except the stock car already produces those 1050Nm using LAUNCH CONTROL. He bypasses the need for LAUNCH CONTROL to be engaged in order to enter OVERBOOST.

But the car is rated for that output because it already makes it in a stock setting.

 

[prj]

Just in the event that the car stands still (e.g. accident, 12V battery issues or other), I assume the ASG can still be swapped but perhaps codes may not be possible to clear (in certain events), would that be a potential issue....or is it not crucial in the process? Looking forward to part 3.
Very curious to hear your experience with the TS CT as I drive exactly the same type.
Cheers

Those codes will not void your warranty for sure. Only the TD1 flag can.
It's just a measure to avoid confusing the dealer, because if they scan a car and there's a ton of old codes in there, then it can be annoying for them to try to find something.

The important part is, that when they perform warranty work that the car has a stock ASG.
And technically right now they don't check on the backend for a tuned ASG (even though the ASG reports the tuning status to the backend).

These precautions are just in case they decide to enforce TD1 on these cars. I am sure if they start ever enforcing it we will hear about this immediately on the forum from someone who got their warranty denied with a modded unit in that case.

I just don't want anyone to take a chance when a battery replacement costs 50k. So I do not offer to modify the stock controller. Besides, if you have good volume contracts then a new controller is barely above the price of express shipping the old one back and forth. Hence this makes no sense to me. Why not just do it right and not take any chances? Surely swapping the ASG back and forth once in a while is no big deal either? Takes 10-20 minutes depending on whether it's a sedan or a ST/CT.

 

[Rik_CT4s]

Those codes will not void your warranty for sure. Only the TD1 flag can.
It's just a measure to avoid confusing the dealer, because if they scan a car and there's a ton of old codes in there, then it can be annoying for them to try to find something.

The important part is, that when they perform warranty work that the car has a stock ASG.
And technically right now they don't check on the backend for a tuned ASG (even though the ASG reports the tuning status to the backend).

These precautions are just in case they decide to enforce TD1 on these cars. I am sure if they start ever enforcing it we will hear about this immediately on the forum from someone who got their warranty denied with a modded unit in that case.

I just don't want anyone to take a chance when a battery replacement costs 50k. So I do not offer to modify the stock controller. Besides, if you have good volume contracts then a new controller is barely above the price of express shipping the old one back and forth. Hence this makes no sense to me. Why not just do it right and not take any chances? Surely swapping the ASG back and forth once in a while is no big deal either? Takes 10-20 minutes depending on whether it's a sedan or a ST/CT.

Many thanks for your clear answer. Any feedback on the tune on your Turbo S CT? Driving the same, this interests me most. Just wondering how the difference (pre post) will be. Thanks.

 

[bn8959]

Those codes will not void your warranty for sure. Only the TD1 flag can.
It's just a measure to avoid confusing the dealer, because if they scan a car and there's a ton of old codes in there, then it can be annoying for them to try to find something.

The important part is, that when they perform warranty work that the car has a stock ASG.
And technically right now they don't check on the backend for a tuned ASG (even though the ASG reports the tuning status to the backend).

These precautions are just in case they decide to enforce TD1 on these cars. I am sure if they start ever enforcing it we will hear about this immediately on the forum from someone who got their warranty denied with a modded unit in that case.

I just don't want anyone to take a chance when a battery replacement costs 50k. So I do not offer to modify the stock controller. Besides, if you have good volume contracts then a new controller is barely above the price of express shipping the old one back and forth. Hence this makes no sense to me. Why not just do it right and not take any chances? Surely swapping the ASG back and forth once in a while is no big deal either? Takes 10-20 minutes depending on whether it's a sedan or a ST/CT.

This is all fascinating. So just to clarify - that firmware verification process (ie looking for a modified/unsigned code on the ASG) would only happen while at a dealer? There isnt a central ECU that could pick up the changes to the ASG under normal operation and 'phone that home' via OTA? If so, it seems really positive, that an ASG swap could be very low risk (assuming the oem ASG is swapped back whenever its back in the shop).

 

[BjörnfromHamburg]

Also would be very interested in feedback about your TS!

 

[prj]

Many thanks for your clear answer. Any feedback on the tune on your Turbo S CT? Driving the same, this interests me most. Just wondering how the difference (pre post) will be. Thanks.

I am working on the temp website and the descriptions.
I do a few things other than giving the real full launch power & torque all the time. The antisurge damper (torque filter) is recalibrated to disengage when the powertrain is pretensioned and there's a sharp throttle movement giving much better throttle response during dynamic driving, the shiftpoints are optimized to deliver the maximum power better in all modes, the top speed limitation is removed, only the motor rpm limiter remains, and few other bits...

If your car is not tuned yet, then I'd say it's a nobrainer. Certainly the difference is big in normal driving.
The theoretical launch control is all well and good, but 99% of the time it is just that - theoretical. Together with the other modifications the car goes from being fast to brutal snap power delivery when you want it, yet drives exactly like stock when you don't.

But of course I am selling this stuff. So one of you will have to take the plunge.
If you're not happy with it - send it back and I'll give you a refund. I don't think I will ever have to do that, but maybe that gives some peace of mind

This is all fascinating. So just to clarify - that firmware verification process (ie looking for a modified/unsigned code on the ASG) would only happen while at a dealer? There isnt a central ECU that could pick up the changes to the ASG under normal operation and 'phone that home' via OTA? If so, it seems really positive, that an ASG swap could be very low risk (assuming the oem ASG is swapped back whenever its back in the shop).

The ASG constantly records this information in the background, but yeah they don't send that online ... yet. Only when warranty work needs to be performed they have to do a check, and only at that moment the information is communicated.

That said, I am sure in the future this will go online (on new platforms). BMW already do that. Tune the car and your warranty is gone before you can blink.

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