Taycan as a long term car?

[KLHubb]

After 3.5 years of ownership, I find the 2020 4S to be a keeper...at least until the Cayman E is available. If it looks as good as the Taycan, I will consider exchanging my 4S for the Cayman E.
I divide my time between the 4S and my 15 year old '09 997.2, and I love the m both. The '12 Cayenne serves as my Home Deport transporter.

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[Fish Fingers]

OP
3 questions:

1. Have you driven a Taycan?
2. Can you charge at home?
3. Do you do a lot of very long journeys?

I would also stress - don't rely on information from people who have never owned an EV. They are not qualified to offer comparisons imo.

Ask people who have owned / own both (nearly every ev driver).

If I need medical advice, I prefer to go to someone who has actual medical experience.....not ask the guy in the pub.
The sheer level of misinformation / bias against EVs is high (and getting worse).

 

[RacingDuck]

I ordered the facelift 4CT and plan to keep it.

I'm coming from a Civic Type R and Hyundai Ioniq 5.

I love my Type R and always have a smile when I get in, but on the other hand I learned to love Ioniq 5 as well. I liked it for the looks and just went for it. Now I like the EV experience. Silence, lazy always power available.

But we don't need two cars actually. So what to do?

I just want the best of both cars combined and the end result was the Cross Turismo. Buying a new Taycan with my financial situation is probably one of the worst decisions rationally, but I have left the land of the rational with the Type R.

My Ioniq 5 has 99% SoH after 38500 km and quite a lot of DC charging.
The new battery chemistry with better thermal performance makes me hope, that it will perform better than the old one with respect to degradation.

It's practical, it charges like a boss (that's the main point for me, anything with 250 km/20 min is okay for road trips), it has all the driving performance of my Type R and it's ride is even more comfortable than the Ioniq 5.

Don't see why this wouldn't hold up for the next 10 years. And I can't even charge at home, but that proved to be a minor inconvenience where I'm living.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I really don’t get the point on why “more software means it’s disposable”, whatever “it” is. McLaren F1s are still running, and that is something that truly requires a very specific combination of software and hardware to service/keep running.

The fallacy being circulated above is that, somehow, old iPhones are being rendered obsolete by new software. Maybe, but they’d work perfectly fine with their original software plus the mandatory security fixes. Where they break down is the constant change in usability, ever more computing-intensive functionality.

Translating this into cars, its fundamental driving systems can be served indefinitely by their original software plus the few mandatory updates (safety or security). One needs zero updates for usability, and so the car can retain its usefulness/initial usability for as long as the electrical and mechanical components remain functional.

Tesla deserves an asterisk here, since their modeling of the car in software was complete from the very beginning, and making design changes strains old hardware. I don’t see that being necessary with the newer wave of EVs - those that learned from/copied Tesla.

Keep buying new cars, or keep driving old ones; just don’t try and justify your choice to be the only logically correct one.

 

[SCOUBI22222]

I have a Taycan 2023 ST, I was planning to keep it until the Macan or 2 years, now given the price of the trade-in by Porsche, I will keep it long term, it's a default choice, hoping that Maybe one day the battery will be replaceable.

 

[TDinDC]

I really don’t get the point on why “more software means it’s disposable”, whatever “it” is. McLaren F1s are still running, and that is something that truly requires a very specific combination of software and hardware to service/keep running.

The fallacy being circulated above is that, somehow, old iPhones are being rendered obsolete by new software. Maybe, but they’d work perfectly fine with their original software plus the mandatory security fixes. Where they break down is the constant change in usability, ever more computing-intensive functionality.

Translating this into cars, its fundamental driving systems can be served indefinitely by their original software plus the few mandatory updates (safety or security). One needs zero updates for usability, and so the car can retain its usefulness/initial usability for as long as the electrical and mechanical components remain functional.

Tesla deserves an asterisk here, since their modeling of the car in software was complete from the very beginning, and making design changes strains old hardware. I don’t see that being necessary with the newer wave of EVs - those that learned from/copied Tesla.

Keep buying new cars, or keep driving old ones; just don’t try and justify your choice to be the only logically correct one.

I feel the need to correct this narrative here if this is directed to my comment.

The Taycan is VERY expensive, with expensive repairs and replacement parts.

I think that Porsche and all of the car manufacturers are building cars now in a way that is not meant to be retained (i.e., they are building disposable cars). When a car depreciates so much and then it needs a repair of a costly component (e.g., a battery or a glass roof, for example), the cost of repair could easily make it a better financial decision to get rid of the car rather than repair it.

Also, the Tycans (and new Macans and Panamera's) are much more software based than previous Porsches. Porsche is not a great manager of software. I am highly skeptical that they will do as good of a job even as Apple of managing previous versions and backward compatibility.

On top of all of that is that the technology here is improving by leaps and bounds, so it would not be surprising at all to me if range and performance are not significantly improved over the next few years. (and to the extent the hardware is improved, I am even more skeptical of Porsche managing past versions and upgrades).

Bottom line is that I personally would never keep a Taycan beyond the longest period of the factory warranty. In that sense, I do view the cars as disposable like an iPhone., but that has nothing to do with propagating myths about the relationship between software and hardware.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I feel the need to correct this narrative here if this is directed to my comment.

The Taycan is VERY expensive, with expensive repairs and replacement parts.

I think that Porsche and all of the car manufacturers are building cars now in a way that is not meant to be retained (i.e., they are building disposable cars). When a car depreciates so much and then it needs a repair of a costly component (e.g., a battery or a glass roof, for example), the cost of repair could easily make it a better financial decision to get rid of the car rather than repair it.

Also, the Tycans (and new Macans and Panamera's) are much more software based than previous Porsches. Porsche is not a great manager of software. I am highly skeptical that they will do as good of a job even as Apple of managing previous versions and backward compatibility.

On top of all of that is that the technology here is improving by leaps and bounds, so it would not be surprising at all to me if range and performance are not significantly improved over the next few years. (and to the extent the hardware is improved, I am even more skeptical of Porsche managing past versions and upgrades).

Bottom line is that I personally would never keep a Taycan beyond the longest period of the factory warranty. In that sense, I do view the cars as disposable like an iPhone., but that has nothing to do with propagating myths about the relationship between software and hardware.

It was partially aimed at your comment, although I have read here before comments pertaining to EVs being built for obsolescence. Let's unpack the claims:

- price of acquisition vs depreciation: let's agree this is not only subjective, but also transient/subject to fluctuations in time. But going past that, the usability of something is completely decoupled from its instantaneous value - at acquisition time or as it ages. I could make the argument that a rapidly-depreciating car is actually a reason for not considering it as being disposable - you're only losing money when you move on.

- cost of repairs/updates: here, too, I could make the same argument in reverse: a fully depreciated Taycan with a new battery is a bargain, so repairing it does make sense - nearly identical to new, for the cost of a battery + shell. It's exactly what kept 996 /986/944 prices affordable - they were/are/forever will be the ~20k Porsches but by no means are they being "disposed of". They just end up in the hands of those who are willing and can afford to fix them. (Ironically, pre-996 911s were in the same bucket until the early 2000s. Not that I'm seeing Taycans ascending to air-cooled status.)

- availability of repairs/updates: the same argument of technology improving applies to parts, too. Once a model reaches a level of sales which can support a self-sustaining 2nd hand/independent market for parts and repairs, it's likely to live on forever. At 100k units, the Taycan is bordering that status. You don't need a 50k battery to revive that old Taycan - first because the battery won't cost 50k forever, and secondly because there will be a supply of 2nd hand or 3rd party replacements. (Cracked glass roofs are indeed a bigger problem.)

- progress of technology: certainly the cars of the future will have 5x the range, weigh a ton less, and charge twice as fast. (No, I don't really believe that.) But that will come with the 'new' acquisition price, too, and this is where our respective biases act as sorting buckets: the old/existing cars will perform at 90% of their as-new capabilities, while also costing 0 additional dollars. Disposable means "used up, outlived its useful functionality", and that will most definitely not be the case.

Software updates are a red herring - software doesn't decay, I expect 0 updates from Porsche, and the car will continue functioning as is for as long as its components don't fail physically. Just like old iPhones.

 

[TDinDC]

It was partially aimed at your comment, although I have read here before comments pertaining to EVs being built for obsolescence. Let's unpack the claims:

- price of acquisition vs depreciation: let's agree this is not only subjective, but also transient/subject to fluctuations in time. But going past that, the usability of something is completely decoupled from its instantaneous value - at acquisition time or as it ages. I could make the argument that a rapidly-depreciating car is actually a reason for not considering it as being disposable - you're only losing money when you move on.

- cost of repairs/updates: here, too, I could make the same argument in reverse: a fully depreciated Taycan with a new battery is a bargain, so repairing it does make sense - nearly identical to new, for the cost of a battery + shell. It's exactly what kept 996 /986/944 prices affordable - they were/are/forever will be the ~20k Porsches but by no means are they being "disposed of". They just end up in the hands of those who are willing and can afford to fix them. (Ironically, pre-996 911s were in the same bucket until the early 2000s. Not that I'm seeing Taycans ascending to air-cooled status.)

- availability of repairs/updates: the same argument of technology improving applies to parts, too. Once a model reaches a level of sales which can support a self-sustaining 2nd hand/independent market for parts and repairs, it's likely to live on forever. At 100k units, the Taycan is bordering that status. You don't need a 50k battery to revive that old Taycan - first because the battery won't cost 50k forever, and secondly because there will be a supply of 2nd hand or 3rd party replacements. (Cracked glass roofs are indeed a bigger problem.)

- progress of technology: certainly the cars of the future will have 5x the range, weigh a ton less, and charge twice as fast. (No, I don't really believe that.) But that will come with the 'new' acquisition price, too, and this is where our respective biases act as sorting buckets: the old/existing cars will perform at 90% of their as-new capabilities, while also costing 0 additional dollars. Disposable means "used up, outlived its useful functionality", and that will most definitely not be the case.

Software updates are a red herring - software doesn't decay, I expect 0 updates from Porsche, and the car will continue functioning as is for as long as its components don't fail physically. Just like old iPhones.

I honestly don’t care that much, but I think that having a battery failure or a cracked glass roof in year 9 would be a complete and utter disaster where one would have been much better off with a different car under warranty. I would not spend 50k to repair a car worth 40K (particularly if there were no prospect of values increasing in foreseeable future). Taycans are just so ridiculously expensive to repair, which matters when they will depreciate. It’s disposable not because it should be but because of the strategy/pricing of the manufacturers. So that’s all I’m saying. Covered by warranty? I’m all in for keeping the same car for as long as I can stretch that warranty out. I do want to be in a new Taycan or different car before that warranty expires. All of the issues I mentioned were discussed in the years following warranty expiration: I was not suggesting swaps would be necessary more frequently than that.

 

[rich_r]

Well said WasserGKuehlt. I'd also add that with items like batteries and software, you're likely to discover any issues well before the warranty ends if there are indeed issues (as you note, Software doesn't 'decay' it either has bugs or it doesn't).

From following Tesla forums for many years, it seems like cars that are going to have battery issues fail pretty early on while others go on to livinhg long (in some examples several hundred thousand mile) lives.

If I were going to roll the dice on buying any new car and keeping it for many years, I'd actually go EV over ICE...especially when it comes to luxury German cars. Modern ICE engines and transmissions are way more complicated than any EV drivetrain (and in many cases contain EV-like hybrid systems as well), and still have all the aforementioned software controlling everything.

If you were to take, for example, a 10 year old Panamera to a dealer to be repaired odds are you'd be presented with a very hefty bill that might exceed the car's value*....in other words, when it comes to maintaining and repairing any older, out of warranty luxury car you have to be smart about where you take it.

*I've seen reports of 20k+ quotes from dealers to replace PDK transmissions for example. You can find plenty of horror stories on the various forums if you look. But, of course that serves as a motivation to find better/cheaper ways to deal with these issues than simply replacing an entire transmission.

 

[TDinDC]

Well said WasserGKuehlt. I'd also add that with items like batteries and software, you're likely to discover any issues well before the warranty ends if there are indeed issues (as you note, Software doesn't 'decay' it either has bugs or it doesn't).

From following Tesla forums for many years, it seems like cars that are going to have battery issues fail pretty early on while others go on to livinhg long (in some examples several hundred thousand mile) lives.

If I were going to roll the dice on buying any new car and keeping it for many years, I'd actually go EV over ICE...especially when it comes to luxury German cars. Modern ICE engines and transmissions are way more complicated than any EV drivetrain (and in many cases contain EV-like hybrid systems as well), and still have all the aforementioned software controlling everything.

If you were to take, for example, a 10 year old Panamera to a dealer to be repaired odds are you'd be presented with a very hefty bill that might exceed the car's value*....in other words, when it comes to maintaining and repairing any older, out of warranty luxury car you have to be smart about where you take it.

*I've seen reports of 20k+ quotes from dealers to replace PDK transmissions for example. You can find plenty of horror stories on the various forums if you look. But, of course that serves as a motivation to find better/cheaper ways to deal with these issues than simply replacing an entire transmission.

If your goal is to buy a car and keep for many years, the Taycan is not the right choice. It’s not about ice v EV. It’s about reliability and cost of repair. Simply no comparison between Lexus/Toyota (which are very reliable, have comparatively low cost to repair, and retain value versus purchase price) and a Taycan (and many Porsches I might add).

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I would not spend 50k to repair a car worth 40K […] It’s disposable not because it should be but because of the strategy/pricing of the manufacturers.

I understand your position; I am trying to explain it is a subjective one, and that “disposable” is perhaps not the right term. Or at least not in the commonly accepted interpretation of “paper cup/razor/limited usage” sense.

And as exhibit A (for the subjective argument), *I* did spend more to rebuild the engine of my 996 than I paid for the car itself (in working/functional state). Was on par with what I’d expect a battery to cost if/when the time comes.

I have not yet thought that far in advance as to what will be (for me) after the Taycan. Like with the 996, I expect I’ll examine my options when that time comes, and make a game-time decision based on cost, alternatives and my degree of emotional attachment to the car. I guess the difference is that I’m not proclaiming that to be a foregone conclusion so far in advance.

 

[snstevens]

That would be great.

Everything I read about battery packs scares me tbh.

I thought battery costs were likely to increase with increased demand for their raw materials?

I was leaning towards a turbo but I’ve seen a really nice gts.

On another thread we've talked about battery replacement costs and they look to be ~$30k USD at today's prices. TBH I expect that to come down over time with improvements in battery cost. We are in the early days of the EV transition after all. The use of silicon anodes could also increase range without adding cells.

BTW - My favorite click-bait "EV issue" involves EV fires. Happens so infrequently compared to ICE cars that it is amazing, but everyone gets bent out of shape anyway. Check out this recent article.

Don't get worried about every little issue hitting headlines today. The futures so bright I gotta wear shades

 

[d00d]

I'm booked for Monday 12/30/2030 at BatteriesPlus for a solid state upgrade, less than half the weight and on sale for $2,495.

 

[feye]

I keep coming back to the car's looks. Whenever I see one out and about, I'm still very impressed now 2+ years into my own ownership.

Even looks great when it doesn't drive!

AC charging error, DC is still working...

 

[Fish Fingers]

Looks like OP has disappeared....

Probably got really interested and then went to get an insurance quote.

Now in A&E with cardiac arrest

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