Welcome to Normal Depreciation

[f1eng]

Here's my take on it:
https://tinyurl.com/Used4CTFeedback definitely welcome on that first draft of the spreadsheet.

Looks like a lot of work!

I can’t give feedback on how to do a spreadsheet but it is amusing to see confirmed once again how one persons “must have” are another’s “must not have”

It does make for considerable exasperation ordering new, and still more trying to find an ideal used on IME but does give a rare level of personalisation.
A few more expensive makes have the same approach and some make the Porsche prices look modest

Luckily for me I have what I want because even though used prices are much lower now I can’t find a used car with both my “must” and “must not” options

Sponsored

 

[whitex]

Uh oh, the peer pressure is mounting!
(Especially love the VIN reference – has to include my lucky number!)

Unfortunately though, the HUD obsession is for real.

The only exception I would ever consider is the Lucid Air dash – not that I’m in the market for that, but I drove one briefly when we happened to stop by a sustainability fair with EV demos. (Yes, that’s right, I test drove a $138,000 car at a sustainability fair!) Lo and behold, what I’d read on the Lucid forums from all those fans was actually true: the positioning of the Air dash really is different.

Otherwise, when I’ve recently driven cars w/o HUD (e.g., 4CT test drive after driving to the dealer in my wife’s i4, Q5 rental after driving to the airport in the day in my A6ar), I dearly missed the HUD.

I would settle for a more basic HUD w/ just my speed + current speed limit (even though I do value the add’l info), as I often drive on secondary highways where the speed limit changes ever few miles, running the complete range from 30mph to 55mph with pretty much all the 5mph increments.
My experience is that 10+ is safe, but I often forget … is the speed limit 45 and I can do 55? … or is it 35 and I can 45?
(If this sounds annoying, then yes, it is! Two VT towns are especially notorious for funding their entire sheriff-outsourced law enforcement through speeding tickets: one location is a country store that has been closed for a couple decades, and another is a 24/7 school zone even though the school closed about half-a-century ago – seriously.)
Having that differential projected on the screen is so perfect!
(And yes, I can see either HUD just fine even with polarized prescription sunglasses.)

As for ordering my truly unique build, my hesitations are:

• Uncertainty re Tesla Supercharger access next spring.
• Uncertainty re BMW i5 Touring (which will be available in Europe next year, although the details haven’t been announced yet, even though the i5 sedan is already being delivered) for U.S. availability (which obviously isn’t all that promising, since the 5 series wagon hasn’t been available in the U.S. for over a decade) equipped with the larger battery from the i7/iX (which is a combination entirely of my own imagination as the i5 sedan has the same battery as the i4 and hence shorter range than the i4, and the heavier i5 Touring would have even worse range than the i5 sedan, but hey, maybe stuff some extra cells in the i5 Touring rear and raise the cargo floor a bit, right, could happen, maybe?).
• Uncertainty re Audi A6/RS6 etron sedan/hatchback or avant (for every attribute and issue).
• Family plans for cross-country trip next June (first I drive west solo for two weeks, visiting friends and snow-covered mountains along the way, then I pick up my wife and our daughter at LAX to spend a week together driving north, then we drive east for a week to visit various friends and sites), for which we’re definitely using my A6ar, which means having three pricey cars is kind of crazy, especially with only a two-car garage, but could sell the back-up ICE Subaru and put the A6ar in the pull-out parking spot.

That said, I did update my spreadsheet for all 55 4CT listings at Autotrader. Some highlights:

• In general, impressively high listing prices relative to original MSRP, although no idea if those will be the eventual market-clearing prices.
• Two listing prices reflected an ADM relative to original MSRP.
• Competition for the most unrealistic price was fierce, with a runner-up of $2k discount off of original MSRP after ~20k miles, but …
• … the eventual winner was far ahead of everyone else: a private seller of a 2021 4CT with an original MSRP $108.6 yet now with 32k miles asking $95k.
• Autotrader listings rarely include the build sheet or window sticker, and a few listings by Porsche dealers were not at the Porsche.com/USA listings – I wonder if those dealers are intentionally trying to conceal their meager discounts relative to original MSRP?
• HUD although rare is still included in approximately a third of the builds. (Approximate b/c if I noticed a lack of 2+1 or roof rails in the pictures, then I didn’t request the full specs if not publicly listed.)
• Just when I was about to delete the column for ACC since nobody would ever spec HUD yet not ACC, I found two such builds.
• Most confusing build was heated rear seats yet not heated steering wheel.
• Just one lemon (out of 55).
• One 4CT was at a Subaru dealer.

And now that you’ve made it this far, you are rewarded (?) with some potential contenders:

https://buywithberk.com/2022-porsche-taycan-4-cro

• What can possibly go wrong with a dealer whose motto is, “Don’t be a jerk, Buy With Berk!”
• Despite that, the guy definitely gets good reviews on Google (or somehow games it), and actually makes sense that a boat dealer might buy and resell a few cars on the side.
• Build has all my basics, but nothing else of use.
• Price is good at $96k and 4.6k miles.
• But would have to ship from FL and then buy 20” wheels.
• Color is … not me. Although I have to admit, unlike some other flashy colors that I find hideous or obnoxious, mamba is absolutely glorious. But covered in road grim coming back from winter backcountry skiing trips and dead bugs coming back late at night from ski mountaineering outings – actually, I bet it would still look great! Although just not me.

https://www.eurosportsautomotive.com/inventory/2021-porsche-taycan-4-cross-turismo/642298

• Build has my basics, plus a few other options that I value.
• Price at $109k reflects only an $11k discount from the 2021 MSRP w/ 11.8k miles.
• Plus would have to ship from UT and then buy 20” wheels.
• So would if anything cost more than buying my minimum build new.

https://www.infinitiofbellevue.com/inventory/WP0BA2Y19NSA67077/

• Build has my basics, plus several options I value, along with some harmless options of no value to me.
• Straightforward history of a Seattle-area owner who bought from a Seattle-area dealer, then most likely traded in the 4CT for an Infiniti.
• Price at $100k reflects big discount from the 2021 MSRP of $136k, but has 18k miles.
• Plus would have to ship from WA and then buy 20” wheels/tires/TPMS (although the 21” tires have only ~4k miles).
• Might see if the price drops and/or if my insanity increases – to be continued! (If this one were within a drivable distance, I'd be far more tempted.)

I get the feeling you are suffering paralysis by overanalysis. If you are super particular and any deviation from your ideal spec would diminish your ownership experience, then buy new custom build. Worrying about future cars which may appear some time in the future seems like a perfect way to never buy a car. There will ALWAYS be new cars on the horizon - the only scenarios where that is not true are apocalyptic ones - world war, large asteroid hits or is about to hit Earth, world pandemic with much higher mortality than COVID, etc, etc. In all those scenarios production stops along with future car development, so at that point you'll have a problem buying any car at all (think COVID pandemic car market but 100x worse).

Last I checked shipping the car is ~$2,500 for covered transport across the USA, but you could also just drive it. I drove mine from South Carolina. Whether you ship it or drive it, if you pick up the car in WA and come down to inspect/buy it, ping me, I might swing by, say hello, offer any advice. Oh, that car arrived in WA in 12/2021, so probably has the electronic steering column adjustment with the memory package which you cannot get today unless you order GTS or higher.

PS> About your comment of no window stickers, I assume you know you can look them up yourself (not always free, but possible through places like https://monroneylabels.com/ or https://www.carfax.com/).

 

[mikezhang31]

Sounds like my car is your perfect spec

… but I love mine too much

 

[Jonathan S.]

[…] I'm also open to sedans and RWD cars, so that opens up my options a bit.

Yes, far more available for the sedan, and far more price realism among sellers, especially for RWD. Good luck, and with a little patience, you should find a perfect build at a great price!

[…] A few more expensive makes have the same approach and some make the Porsche prices look modest [...]

This is so different for me coming from Audi and BMW, or pretty much any other marque, where each model comes in a range of trims, some highly distinguishable, some not so much, then you have a variety of packages, containing a mix of what you want and what is of no value to you.

Porsche sure lets you dial it in exactly, whether it’s the 4 with options that cost more than the base price or a TS with, hmm, let’s see, out of curiosity, I spec’d one now with no options other than the included 20” wheels, leather interior, and 18-way seats, so more poorly equipped in some ways than cars costing 1/5th the price!

At another end of the multidimensional spectrum is of course Tesla, which offers essentially no options other than number of motors. Plus whether your want the standard ADAS suite, a slightly enhanced suite, or FSD that adds … pretty much nothing. (How have Tesla owners not filed a class action lawsuit given that FSD – aside from being potentially dangerous – was paid for in advance yet has delivered almost no features, let alone fully automated driving?)

Lucid is especially interesting, since to spec some basic features like seat ventilation and massage you have to choose more powerful drive trains – and, even better, this is not documented anywhere in writing!

I get the feeling you are suffering paralysis by overanalysis. [...]

Who, me, how could you ever suspect me of something like that?
[insert some sort of humorous emoji here]

Much of my earlier career often entailed exactly that. (Such fond memories of those great draft reports I managed for gov’t agencies, never to be read by anyone…)

Although to be fair to myself, my extensive spreadsheets for my three most recent car purchases and bicycle purchases have resulted in near-term purchases.

This situation is different though since the i5 Touring and A6 etron really are coming soon – well, probably not to the U.S. for the former, and probably not all that soon for the latter.

And those ~12k Tesla V3 250kW Superchargers already capable of supporting CCS1 communication protocols have the potential to radically improve Taycan DCFC … or just add even more frustration to the current situation.

(But don’t worry, I’m not one of those potential buyers holding out for a better battery based on the latest click-bait article about some sort of breakthrough technology, or looking forward to some minor face lift!)

This is also a highly discretionary purchase (not that any Taycan is ever a life necessity!), so I’m fine with waiting. And by this time next year the warranty will be up on my MY22 A6ar, which means I’ll putting that into semi-retirement.

Thanks for the offer to meet up – could happen! Especially if combined with some fall skiing on various snow-covered (I hope by then) volcanoes. (I’ll at Mt Hood at the end of this month to continue my monthly ski streak, but probably won’t have time to head further north, although I could adjust my flights, hmm.)

Interesting about the electronic steering column. I think the MY22 that I test drove had it, originally purchased March 22. What I mainly remember is how I needed only several seconds to dial in a driving position that was absolutely perfect, and how the seat felt like sitting simultaneously in a fighter jet and on a living room sofa – the best of support and comfort, Porsche really has that dialed in!

Thanks for the tip on the websites. The included CarFax reports have been interesting. The one lemon 4CT ended up being close to my spec but for the HUD. CarFax told an interesting tale (as I interpret it) of a buyer who took delivery in Jan 22, had the passenger PCM checked out a month later, then ditto two months later, after which I suspect the car languished for months at the dealer awaiting parts and/or sleuthing after which the owner gave up in disgust. With a hefty lemon discount (to reflect a really low future resale value from a branded title), would have been a good deal, given I would think a prior problem with the passenger PCM is not only fixed, but also of no consequence if causing problems again in the future. (I included it my ideal new build only b/c if spec’ing HUD, ACC, and LCA, then the incremental cost for the Tech package is only $500 for passenger PCM + park assist, so, well, why not?)

Meanwhile, I've added C&B to my alerts.
The two recent CT auctions were interesting:

• $140k MY22 4S CT 3k miles sold for $97.5k -- ouch!
• $111.6k MY22 4 CT 2.8k miles bid to $86.5k not meeting reserve -- as if the buyer thinks that it can somehow fetch more via a private sale (unless it was just testing the waters)?
  

 

[whitex]

(How have Tesla owners not filed a class action lawsuit given that FSD – aside from being potentially dangerous – was paid for in advance yet has delivered almost no features, let alone fully automated driving?)

Multiple suits on FSD in progress already.

Lucid is especially interesting, since to spec some basic features like seat ventilation and massage you have to choose more powerful drive trains – and, even better, this is not documented anywhere in writing!

Try ordering a Taycan with electronic steering column. The exact same thing (spoiler - must order GTS or higher, but configurator will not tell you that, you have to discover it yourself by configuring different trims).

This situation is different though since the i5 Touring and A6 etron really are coming soon – well, probably not to the U.S. for the former, and probably not all that soon for the latter.

How is that reflected in your spreadsheet? A column for "move to another continent" cost?

And those ~12k Tesla V3 250kW Superchargers already capable of supporting CCS1 communication protocols have the potential to radically improve Taycan DCFC … or just add even more frustration to the current situation.

Why is this a consideration? If Porsche strikes a deal with Tesla, old cars get adapters. Even Ford is only providing adapters at first, NACS in cars in 2025 or later. If access to superchargers is a must have deal breaker, your spreadsheet is going to get a lot simpler with only S3XY choices today.

Thanks for the tip on the websites. The included CarFax reports have been interesting. The one lemon 4CT ended up being close to my spec but for the HUD. CarFax told an interesting tale (as I interpret it) of a buyer who took delivery in Jan 22, had the passenger PCM checked out a month later, then ditto two months later, after which I suspect the car languished for months at the dealer awaiting parts and/or sleuthing after which the owner gave up in disgust. With a hefty lemon discount (to reflect a really low future resale value from a branded title), would have been a good deal, given I would think a prior problem with the passenger PCM is not only fixed, but also of no consequence if causing problems again in the future.

Out of curiosity, have you researched the possibility of retrofitting the HUD? I don't see it as being be very challenging for a skilled Porsche dealer - no EV specific knowledge required, probably just add the part and connect a cable to power and PCM. With a deep discount lemon, you could have ample budget to add a HUD.

 

[Jonathan S.]

[...] How is that reflected in your spreadsheet? A column for "move to another continent" cost? [...]

Yes, exactly, plus once I do arrive at my destination in Europe via my i5 Touring, the backcountry skiing and ski mountaineering will be better than in New England!

I wonder why Porsche reserves the electronic steering column adjustment for the three highest trims when everything else is a la carte? Seems like such a random exception to that flexibility. (Our i4 lacks that feature, but fortunately my wife and I are fine with the same steering column position, even though the automated seat repositioning when we switch the BMW ID is pretty wild!)

I thought all the FSD lawsuits were about safety, but perhaps those have just been overshadowed by the failure to deliver anything even remotely approaching FSD. (I would love to serve as the economist on that case and learn how much Tesla has made from charging for FSD!)

re Supercharger access, some chance that BMW will strike a deal with Tesla yet VAG will not, and that Tesla will not open up access to all CCS1 comers. But of course that would matter in my EV decisionmaking only if the i5 Touring is coming to the U.S. (especially with a larger battery than in the i4 hatchback or i5 sedan), which it almost certainly is not.
(And Model S would be perfect for me in so many ways if it just wasn’t … a Tesla.)

But I can hope, right? I mean, what would I do if I buy a 4CT now or in the near-future, only to be able to take delivery of the i5 Touring in something like early 2025? Oh, right, I could sell the 4CT and buy the i5 Touring…

HUD retrofit, both my BMW and Audi have a kind of cutout in the trim for a projector. Taycan is the same:
https://taycanforum.com/forum/threa...eless-carplay-charging.2817/page-2#post-39515

Old post for debate:
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/head-up-display-mj-2021.1485/

Summary of info:
https://taycanforum.com/forum/threa...eless-carplay-charging.2817/page-5#post-52206

Old poll:
https://taycanforum.com/forum/threads/hud-passenger-display.9378/

Perhaps this is the retrofit solution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display

“The F-35 Lightning II was designed without a HUD, relying solely on the HMD [helmet-mounted display], making it the first modern military fighter not to have a fixed HUD.”​

 

[911]

I’m sorry, wut? Porsche sells way more four door saloons than it does 911s or Boxsters.

They did the Taycan first because they needed a forward looking concept car to capture the attention of the market, followed by the pedestrian Macan. They wouldn’t have gotten any buzz or positive brand recognition if the first EV they made was the cheapest vehicle they sell, one that most Porschephiles look down their nose at.

And there was ZERO chance Porsche’s first electric car was going to be the 911 platform. Are you new to the brand?

And they all depreciate massively and are business leased by old men. Same as their bmw, merc, Audi equivalent cars.

911, boxster and cayman have a much wider appeal.

Ive owned 996c, 997.2 c2s and a Macan turbo.

Fact is. Porsche dealers are full of heavily depreciating Taycans that nobody wants.

Awful reliability and Insurance being double that of a 991.2 Turbo will kill values completely.

It’s the first real lemon Porsche have made. Total disaster.

Looks nice though.

 

[Caraholic]

And they all depreciate massively and are business leased by old men. Same as their bmw, merc, Audi equivalent cars.

911, boxster and cayman have a much wider appeal.

Ive owned 996c, 997.2 c2s and a Macan turbo.

Fact is. Porsche dealers are full of heavily depreciating Taycans that nobody wants.

Awful reliability and Insurance being double that of a 991.2 Turbo will kill values completely.

It’s the first real lemon Porsche have made. Total disaster.

Looks nice though.

huh

 

[violuma]

I wonder why Porsche reserves the electronic steering column adjustment for the three highest trims when everything else is a la carte?

The only thing that came to mind for me was that they have an external limiting factor, such as a specific component necessary for the electronic steering column that is in short supply. My SA vaguely agreed with this theory, but I don't know if they were just humoring me.

 

[gnop1950]

Interesting thing about the Porsche options is you can spec a car -without- features that are forced on you by other makes.
For example, most sporty versions of cars have a black interior - boring.
Most upmarket cars have privacy glass as standard - looks like a drug dealer's car and ruins the lines.
Most upmarket cars have adapted cruise which means I don't use cruise any more.
Lots of cars force a glass roof on you as you go up market.
And so forth.

All these things may be considered "must have" by some but the fact I could spec my car without them was a great relief, and finding a used one without black interior, ACC and a glass roof here hasn't happened.

OTOH I wouldn't pay a penny extra for HUD, for example, but would quite like it.

On the one hand I was exasperated by the options list but on the other it allowed me to get a car without the features I very much did not want.

Also, I keep my cars ages if I like them so the cost is less important than being irritated daily by something unwanted. The only thing that irritates me daily about the Taycan is its width (and that almost caused me not to buy one).

I agree, "no regrets" was my motto while specc'ing my Taycan. Do I have a ton of options that may, or may not, appeal to the next owner or add much to the resale value? Quite likely, but, to put it bluntly, screw them When spending this much on a car I'm going to get exactly what I want and, at least for me, resale value is not even a small part of the equation.

I'm glad I did. At 1 year in I'm still very very happy with my purchase.

 

[Archimedes]

And they all depreciate massively and are business leased by old men. Same as their bmw, merc, Audi equivalent cars.

911, boxster and cayman have a much wider appeal.

Ive owned 996c, 997.2 c2s and a Macan turbo.

Fact is. Porsche dealers are full of heavily depreciating Taycans that nobody wants.

Awful reliability and Insurance being double that of a 991.2 Turbo will kill values completely.

It’s the first real lemon Porsche have made. Total disaster.

Looks nice though.

You think that the 911, Boxster, and Cayman have a wider appeal than Porsche’s sedans and SUVs? You really don’t know much about Porsche sales history if you do.

And the rest of your argument is nonsensical drivel. High end sedans depreciate crazy fast. Anyone not aware of that only has themselves to blame. Age of owner and financing has nothing to do with anything.

And BTW, the insurance on my Taycan is lower than my GT4.

Oh and the average age of a 911 owner Is 52 years old. You think the age of Taycan buyers is higher than that?

 

[snstevens]

And they all depreciate massively and are business leased by old men. Same as their bmw, merc, Audi equivalent cars.

911, boxster and cayman have a much wider appeal.

Ive owned 996c, 997.2 c2s and a Macan turbo.

Fact is. Porsche dealers are full of heavily depreciating Taycans that nobody wants.

Awful reliability and Insurance being double that of a 991.2 Turbo will kill values completely.

It’s the first real lemon Porsche have made. Total disaster.

Looks nice though.

Whew, where to start?

i’m totally with @Archimedes on this one. None of your mostly negative
statements is substantiated by facts, but I’ll give you the following -

• You have owned three ICE Porsches ;
• The Taycan looks nice;
• I am an older guy who started out leasing my Taycan

By the way, have you ever owned a Taycan? I’m assuming not so why don’t you check out this poll that shows that ~87% of the members of this forum who responded are really happy with their Taycan, and another 5% are satisfied.

 

[MHC]

I have an incredible Lucid Air GT for sale. 4100 miles - 95K price.

Sponsored