150kW DC-DC converter option

[ron_b]

Help request to you lucky Taycan owners from a poor person still awaiting his lock date.

In the video at start of a thread I had for a charging review by Bjorn Nyland on a Taycan 4S with small battery and base 50kW DC-DC converter he got only a 36kW charging rate. He also stated that's what Porsche had suggested would be common, although I don't recall reading that but I intend to find 800 volt chargers 99% of the time I need fast charging anyway.

So my question to owners is would somebody mind trying to charge they're taken at a 50 kilowatt charger like evgo or such and see what they get. I'm curious if the upgraded 150 kilowatt converter will improve the efficiency at 50 kilowatts. This was speculated in some posts above.

Original thread https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/porsche-taycan-4s-79-kwh-charging-test-bjørn-nyland.1382/

Short cut to the offset


Be clear his story was not all doom and gloom from him, at the beginning of the video you will see 220 kw charging which is the peak for the smaller battery. He was also quite impressed that it was still going at 100 kilowatts at 79%.

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[epirali]

I’ll test it, but I don’t think it will. I think the optional DC to DC is to allow charging at 400v at FASTER than 50KW. I think the same efficiency issue will be there. But I am not sure he is right, I don’t think that is all from DC to DC conversion loss. That would be a LOT of heat generated and would imply something like 20% conversion loss. On most cars at 50 KW charging you usually don't get the full 50 KW.

 

[louv]

Of the 50kW charging stations I connected to on my trip, He's the maximum Observed Charge Rates (that is, what I saw on the center console screen during the session, accuracy not guaranteed):

 

[epirali]

Well there you go, proof that what was reported at 37KW is an anomaly and that DC to DC conversion is not that bad. I think a lot of variances are from charger and conditions of the car/battery.

 

[ron_b]

Of the 50kW charging stations I connected to on my trip, He's the maximum Observed Charge Rates (that is, what I saw on the center console screen during the session, accuracy not guaranteed):

I love the detailed data Don, that is spectacular. If I could ask for a future column added would be the maximum current for the station which you can get from the tag on the side. I have noticed that it matters a lot on my Chevy bolt EV. As some stations are 125 amp and some 150 amp. The issue is that to get 50 kilowatts out of these hundred 25 amp stations you need to be right at 400 volts and generally the car does not get the batteries to that level until pretty late in the charge and by then it's often tapering down. Not sure what voltage the dc-to-dc converter requests, but if it is a fixed doubler as opposed to a variable converter then it would be asking for only 360 or 375 volts which may explain your times getting less than 40 kilowatts. But it's hard for me to do a complete analysis without having the raw data.

Also @epirali, I do not think it is quite a closed topic as I thought Don's car had the 150 kilowatt DC-DC converter. So I guess we would need someone with out of the upgrade to do the test and see if they can get this 47+kW which is great! I am quite hopeful though, I believe that the converter that they would use would be well above 90% efficient so I am hopeful.

 

[Gogs]

I love the detailed data Don, that is spectacular. If I could ask for a future column added would be the maximum current for the station which you can get from the tag on the side. I have noticed that it matters a lot on my Chevy bolt EV. As some stations are 125 amp and some 150 amp. The issue is that to get 50 kilowatts out of these hundred 25 amp stations you need to be right at 400 volts and generally the car does not get the batteries to that level until pretty late in the charge and by then it's often tapering down. Not sure what voltage the dc-to-dc converter requests, but if it is a fixed doubler as opposed to a variable converter then it would be asking for only 360 or 375 volts which may explain your times getting less than 40 kilowatts. But it's hard for me to do a complete analysis without having the raw data.

Also @epirali, I do not think it is quite a closed topic as I thought Don's car had the 150 kilowatt DC-DC converter. So I guess we would need someone with out of the upgrade to do the test and see if they can get this 47+kW which is great! I am quite hopeful though, I believe that the converter that they would use would be well above 90% efficient so I am hopeful.

I’ve been doing a bit of research. I think it is to do with the 400 or 600 volt architecture at the station. The 400 is effectively 2 phases meaning the charger on the street is limited in being able to get charge rates above 50KW. But 600 volt and above can deliver more that 50KW so you need the onboard upgrade to receive that. What I’m not sure about is the 800 volt IONITY chargers connected to 800 volt car. I suspect that’s something to do with both being 800 and being able to deliver and accept at 800 volt etc.

 

[TAYC4S]

I was told by the Porsche GB rep at the launch that this option is not required in the UK based on the same logic of ron_b.... I did not spec it.

See article here:

https://www.drivingelectric.com/com...itable-dont-make-charging-essentials-one-them

The text mentions:

It turns out that, in fact, because legislation means that all the 150kW chargers in the UK have super-modern 960V, they'll charge the Taycan at the full 150kW even if you haven’t added the optional DC on-board charging system. Or at least, according to research that Porsche has done, it will at some 95% or more.

Thanks! Removed...

 

[ron_b]

I’ve been doing a bit of research. I think it is to do with the 400 or 600 volt architecture at the station. The 400 is effectively 2 phases meaning the charger on the street is limited in being able to get charge rates above 50KW. But 600 volt and above can deliver more that 50KW so you need the onboard upgrade to receive that. What I’m not sure about is the 800 volt IONITY chargers connected to 800 volt car. I suspect that’s something to do with both being 800 and being able to deliver and accept at 800 volt etc.

Well the DCFC charger power is somewhat independent of single phase vs 3 phase power, although it's certainly more efficient to get high power from 3 phase and I believe that it is used for the majority of installed units. The DCFC is stepping the voltage up or down to between approx 1000v DC (or 500v for low voltage units) and 300v DC depending on what the vehicle negotiates and also does current limiting based on negotiated values also.

What affects the maximum power of the station is the power electronics within the unit and the cable/plug ratings. For example a 150kW station which is rated at 500v DC max will probably say 300Amp max current, but that is a huge amount of power on a flexible cable handled by end users.

 

[Sonic]

I'm debating whether to drop this option after reading the same article.

Does anyone who now have this have a perspective on whether it's ever been useful?

Are there any stats behind it? E.g. how many 400v UK chargers that would be limited to 50kW vs 150kW, and how many in europe?

I do plan to have the occassional euro trip...

 

[ron_b]

I'm debating whether to drop this option after reading the same article.

Does anyone who now have this have a perspective on whether it's ever been useful?

Are there any stats behind it? E.g. how many 400v UK chargers that would be limited to 50kW vs 150kW, and how many in europe?

I do plan to have the occassional euro trip...

You can try looking at plugshare.com and filter to 120 kilowatts and CCS, but then you would need to look at each one of these stations and see what vendor to guess as to wether it's supports 800 volt, I personally think that most of them that are 120 kW or better stations are 800 volt. Also I think the same is true in the rest of Europe, you can listen to Bjorn's video at the end he talks about the 150 KW option initially saying it makes total sense then later adding that he is not sure there are many places that you would need it then later singing It's a cheap option so he would probably add it anyway.

I recommend watching the whole video but you could skip to 4:38. This was the small battery Taycan 4S.

I personally did not get the option in the United States as from what I can see all high power stations are also high voltage.

 

[daveo4EV]

given that you can’t add it later - it’s cheap insurance - you’ll kick yourself that one time in the future you are forced to suffer through a 50 kW charging session cause you wimped out on a cheap Porsche option that can’t be retrofitted in the future, it’s also going to increase the desireability of the vehicle when it comes time to sell it - since potential buyers might want this faster charging option also.

in the grand scheme of minimum cost $1500 porsche options there are two cheap no brainer options to add to any Taycan build

• $460 150 kW/400V DC option
• $0 25ft charging cord option

honstly you’ll have a long time to think about it when you encounter a 400V/150 kW charging station if you didn’t get it - you’ll have exactly one hour longer to think about it get to 90% charge at a 150 kW station when you pull in with 5% percent battery - when you wait about 95 minutes to charge @ 50 kW vs. 30 minutes at 150 kW

it’s your call, but I can hardley believe this one option is pushing the budget of any potential Taycan purchasers.

 

[Gogs]

I’ve got it, think it’s a waste to be honest. I’ve only changed at 50kw & 350KW DC

 

[porsche_coyote]

I’ve got it, think it’s a waste to be honest. I’ve only changed at 50kw & 350KW DC

I think that this will depend on where you live. I know that on the SF peninsula there are quite a few >50kW DCFC stations, and precious few 800V stations at the moment. I have noticed that the new 150kW EA stations that are popping up near me (one of them is about 4 blocks from my house) are 800V capable.

 

[Pjjameso]

At first I thought that this 150kW upgrade over the 50kW base converter was a no brainier option for USA, but now I am seriously considering dropping it from my confirmation though my dealership strongly suggests it.

Reason is that there are virtually no DCFC (fast chargers) that are over 50kW that are not already 800v and with other vehicles now using 800v charging I predict all new DCFC sites with >50kW will be 800v anyway.
So why pay more money for more weight? Porsche makes it very cheap for what it is, that's not the problem.

I did a PlugShare search for 70kW+ chargers in the USA that are not Electrify America and besides like 10 EVgo units in the Bay area and Los Angeles I see none and those locations have plenty of Electrify America which would be free anyway. The EVgo in Baker California also is 800v.

Oklahoma also has a bunch but that vendors website says they are 800v also, I will call to confirm that out of curiosity as I don't plan on going to Oklahoma.

Other EV folks know of any good reason to get the 150kW option?

Only reason is every time I have tried to use the 350kw charger it was broken and had to move the car to EA 150kw charger!

 

[ThomasDK]

I did not order it, but have not testet the DC fast charge yet. Every new charger in Denmark are 800v so no reason for the upgrade

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