Car died over night…

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daveo4EV

daveo4EV

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"I plugged into my 11 kW EVSE at 10:35 pm
Charging was cooking along at 10.5 kW at 10:39 pm with a target SOC of 85%
I verified charging was still working via Porsche connect app between 11 pm and 11:15 pm - then I went to sleep According to my home power monitoring the vehicle continued to charge until 11:22 pm - but by 11:36 pm it had stopped for some unknown reason - see picture"

The bolded text is what I personally have been contemplating is the issue going on here.

Our service team has found that the 12V battery has a "life" of about 15-20 minutes before it dies when running without the main battery charging it. It is surprising to me that between 21-36 minutes after you stopped using the Porsche Connect application that the 12V battery died.
@LukeManning that you very much -being a 30 year software engineer it's also interesting to me which is why I included it in my bug report…

we know 4 facts from my report
  1. the battery was fine at 10:33 pm - seen the dash board photo
  2. the car was charging from 10:35 to 11:36 pm
  3. I check connect app between 11 & 11:15 the car was charging just fine
  4. the car had stopped charging by 11:36 pm (I don't know if it was actually dead) but it's reasonable speculation it's death is why it stopped charging, but factually we don't know.
this sort of tight time line is exactly the sort of thing that I hopes shakes loose a debugging insight - you don't often get information this detailed when pursuing a customer issue (trust me I know)…

and I agree 100% - I believe the time frame between 11:15 and 11:36 is the "critical" time frame in which the fault is happening…as to why - we can't even speculate - which is why we're here.
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bgatxy1

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I initially thought all instances were tied/related to the connect app access during charge, hence my post 17 question.
post 19 owner confirmed no connect app and no other remote access prior to his instance.
post 21 owner confirmed no connect app usage the
night of his instance.
 
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daveo4EV

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Porsche is engaged and behaving wonderfully - they are taking this issue very seriously - I'm thrilled as a customer!!

detailed questions have been asked - insightful and puzzling questions - they are clearly on to a theory - I have provided more details - confidentiallity prevents me from sharing more - but the questions are VERY interesting!!!

make one's mind wander and have exciting speculation

but it's pretty clear it's not what we think it is - I'm optimistic and enthusiastic - I'm cautiously optimistic it will actually get fixed, less so that they will share the final "fix" solution - but will report they have "fixed it".

Porsche is working the problem - it's all that I could ask and hope for.
 
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daveo4EV

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I am delighted to inform the thread watchers that based on the above posting - Porsche is now firmly in stage 4 of the “6 stages of debugging” - internally they may be on stage 5 but we’ll never know.

this is good news!
 

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Thats a cool screen! I've never seen it before. Nice way to see what your spend is on home charging. I found the screen on the website, but my costs are blank. Presumably you need to tell it somewhere what you pay for electricity. Something you set in your profile? I can't find it - can someone tell me where that setting is?
 


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Well you can see some costs on the screen shot yes. But the costs that are displayed for me are not my electricity costs at home. The Porsche site seems to have calculated the costs this time using the rate we have for charging at Porsche Charging service stations, ie charging on chargers in the approved Porsche network? No idea why it has taken these costs or where you could adjust them? My main interest was really to see how the charging did during the night.

I do have the Porsche Home Energy Manager installed in the house hoping that it will adjust the charging power during the winter half so that I do not trip the main fuse by overloading my circuits. And in the setting for that unit I can set the the correct costs per kWh. But those are a third of the above costs and not used. That system I need to get behind later on as well. That’s for another day.
 

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Well you can see some costs on the screen shot yes. But the costs that are displayed for me are not my electricity costs at home. The Porsche site seems to have calculated the costs this time using the rate we have for charging at Porsche Charging service stations, ie charging on chargers in the approved Porsche network? No idea why it has taken these costs or where you could adjust them? My main interest was really to see how the charging did during the night.

I do have the Porsche Home Energy Manager installed in the house hoping that it will adjust the charging power during the winter half so that I do not trip the main fuse by overloading my circuits. And in the setting for that unit I can set the the correct costs per kWh. But those are a third of the above costs and not used. That system I need to get behind later on as well. That’s for another day.
Huh. In my screen, the costs are blank. It would be nice if you could tell it what your electricity cost is. I have a home energy monitoring system that lets you do that. But it doesn't break out the car charging from the total.
 

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@Dave T
Here are two screenshots from my home energy manager. I hve not had any of the chargers or the heat pump running today so the graph is Not visible
Porsche Taycan Car died over night… 01B2D9CE-5B9D-4642-BDD3-A0B08A57AE1A


Here is a graph from the PCCM from Monday, which is the same day as in my other post. This shows how the PCCM was charging over night as well as the correctly calculated costs. In the settings for the costs, I have had to set the different rates during the day, both two day time rates and two night time rates. This should then theoretically enable the car to charge t optimal times to minimise costs.

Porsche Taycan Car died over night… CDFE210D-4E70-4DE5-B604-E3F03C35E740


I have set the charging profiles in the car to charge to 25% when plugging it in, and then optimised charging to 85% and it works a treat.
 


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Status: no updates from Wed. 9/30 - this is fine - just reporting status - stay tuned.
 
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one of my more automotive friends was inquiring as to my vehicle’s status the other day and he let it slip (I 100% believ it was unintentional):

Dave how is your tin-can doing?
I have say I didn’t correct him, cause that’s how I feel right now.

the Porsche Tin-Can. it unfortunately ”fits”.
 
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@daveo4EV Official Update - based on conversations with my local service manager:

TL;DR; - car was returned to me with no 'fixes' at this time - if the problem reproduced Porsche is interested in the logs. No recommendations to avoid this problem in the future. Porsche is aware of the problem but has no response at this time.

details below:
  • Car found with dead 12V Sunday morning Sept. 27th
  • Car recovered via this technique: 12V Recovery Cheatsheet
  • Car dropped at dealership Sunday afternoon Sept. 27th
  • Dealership acknowledges car drop off monday - have nice loaner by Monday Afternoon Sept 28th
  • Dealership/Porsche send a list of questions On Sept. 29th - detailed replies provided same day
  • Dealership follow-up Thursday Oct. 1st - no status from Porsche
  • Car is ready for pickup Monday Oct. 5th
  • There is _NO_ resolution for this problem at this time - Porsche is aware of this particular issue and apparently has some work in progress to mitigate or resolve these issues with a future update
    • Porsche can neither confirm/deny any future updates
    • Porsche can neither confirm/deny any timeline for updates
  • Porsche returns the vehicle to me and suggested the following:
    • use the PMCC to charge the vehicle - not my Tesla GEN2 charger
      • porsche explicitly stated the Tesla GEN2 charger did not and does not "cause" the problem - but it creates the environment in which the problem is more likely to occur
      • they also confirm this is true for any non-Porsche J-1772 charger
      • they are aware this is unacceptable and see the above reference to possible future updates
    • if the problem recurred they would love another report and access to the vehicle logs.
what happened to @daveo4EV vehicle?

Porsche shared the following - from the vehicle logs and my detailed report (answers are from my local service manager - great guy - answers are NOT quotes - but sanitized for clarity and concision - if you want answers from Porsche please do NOT take my quotes - contact them yourself to get their official position - but I believe the answers to be accurate and consistent with the current situation).
  • Vehicle had a constant drain on the 12V battery starting at 10:30'ish pm Saturday Sept. 26th
    • I had arrived home and plugged in approximately 10:35'ish pm
  • Vehicle started charging at 10:35'ish - and stopped charging around 11:35'ish
    • Porsche was unwilling or unable to share why the vehicle stopped charging - but it did stop charging - they clearly see that in the logs
  • the vehicle was still alive at 11:35'ish - and continuing to log 12V loads
  • the vehicle did not drop offline until 6:30 am'ish sept 27th
    • vehicles logs stopped when 12V tripped offline due to low voltage
  • the vehicle interceded to "save" the 12V throughout the night no less than 7 times (exact number was not shared)
    • there is a limit to the number of times the big battery will attempt to save the little battery
    • porsche was unable or unwilling to tell me if this limit was hit or what the limit is in terms of a counter
  • once the vehicle is in this state the ONLY method to power the vehicle is via the 12V jumper posts in the frunk - all battery/power sources are behind relay's for safety when the car is in this state
  • porsche confirmed my recovery process is appropriate
  • porsche confirmed my vehicle is not the only vehicle being investigated for this
  • porsche confirmed these issues are present even with the latest software and hardware
  • porsche confirmed some 12V issues were fixed with the last update, but obviously there are still remaining issues
  • Question: does checking the "connect" app causes this problem?
  • Porsche Answer: it is a contributing factor, but can happen with or without connect app activity
  • Question: does using non PMCC chargers cause this problem?
  • Porsche Answer: non-PMCC chargers do not cause this problem, but create the circumstances where it is easier for this problem to occur.
  • Question: does Porsche have a reproducible case for this problem?
  • Porsche Answer: we are investigating some reports of 12V battery offline events and are aware this is a possibility with current vehicles.
  • Question: does this affect all Taycans? or only some Taycans?
  • Porsche Answer: no comment at this time.
  • Question: when will porsche have a fix for this problem?
  • Porsche Answer: we are unable to share resolution timeline at this time.
  • Questions: Will a software update be able to resolve this issue?
  • Porsche Answer: we are unable to shared a resolution process at this time which may or may not include software or other changes.
  • Question: Did Porsche enable additional logging or debugging on my vehicle to help diagnose future occurrences of this problem?
  • Porsche Answer: we are not modifying customer vehicles at this time to track any additional telemetry regarding this issue.
  • Question: Is porsche working on this problem as we speak?
  • Porsche Answer: We are always working to improve our products and strive to exceed customer expectations. To the degree this is a problem we are working on resolutions for our customer issues.
  • Question: Can this problem occur when the vehicle is not charging or not plugged in?
  • Porsche Answer: no comment at this time
  • Question: Can this problem occur when the vehicle is at a DC fast charger?
  • Porsche Answer: no comment at this time
  • Question: Does this problem only occur in the US with J-1772 chargers
  • Porsche Answer: no comment at this time
What has @daveo4EV learned from this?
  • there is still a problem with potential 12V issues - there is no known fix at this time
  • there are no particular steps you can or can not do to avoid this problem
  • in my case the 12V was draining due to ongoing activity - the big battery "saw" this drain and stepped into resolve it - but stopped after some number of attempts
    • @daveo4EV speculation: it's unlikely an ODBII based trickle charger has enough juice to "prevent" this problem - the draw is apparently large
  • the connect app is a contributing factor in this problem - but it can still happen without it
  • the type of charger you're using is a contributing factor in this problem - but it can still happen without it
  • once the 12V battery has dropped offline it's isolated behind a relay switch (for safety) - the ONLY method to recover the vehicle and the 12V battery is to apply power to the jumper posts in the frunk
    • an ODBII trickle charger will NOT charge the 12V battery once the vehicle is in this state - the battery relay is tripped and no electrical current can reach the 12V battery
  • my impression is this is a serious problem, and porsche is deeply aware of this problem and they are taking it seriously - but like most hard to reproduce software problems they may or may not be on to a set of fixes
    • it may be next week or next year before they have a set of fixed to resolve this issue - only people internal to Porsche know where they are in this diagnostic process
  • they are aware of some problems with non-Porsche J-1772 chargers - and they intend to fix them and they are not willing to state unequivocally they are not compatible with other chargers
    • a lot of customers are using Tesla Wall chargers - and they are aware they can be better in this space - the Porsche NA tech was deeply familiar with my setup and the reason to use it.
  • my Taycan is not the only vehicle to experience this problem - mine was however the most detailed and thorough report. Apparently I moved the needle on this problem and the combination of my report/log and the vehicles logs provided major insights into the root cause of this problem
    • if you experience this problem - an equivalent write up to mine will aid porsche in resolving this issue.
The service department at my dealership has been great, nice, very professional and accommodating. But there are limits to what service departments can do and at this time there is no resolution to this problem, nothing you can do to avoid this problem and if Porsche knows what steps cause it (so we could avoid it) they are not sharing that information at this time.

I confident porsche is working to fix this issue, but we're just going to have to wait because non-reproducible software problems do not have a fixed schedule for resolution.
 
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Excellent information. Nice job. I hereby hand you the torch!

Obviously they still have some work to do.
 
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Porsche NA Customer Experience VP sent me a nice thank you note today! I am satisfied as a customer and I hope they are close to a solution. It's my sincere hope that my data provided an insight to tracking this issue down - I know from personal experience that hard to reproduce problems like this sometimes hinge on that one "insight" that comes from unexpected data…

I sincerely hope they are close to a resolution and would be tickled pink if my issues moved the needle on resolving this issue.
 

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I had the same problem using a Porsche charger. First time using it bricked the car. Car is at Porsche service for a week. I wonder if this issue is going to reoccur and eventually trigger the lemon law in the USA. I’m told 30 days in service triggers it. I loved the car (4s) for a few days before it died.
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