Gearbox: totally unnecessary.

whitex

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My response was ‘tongue in cheek’. It wasn’t supposed to be taken seriously. But there is a serious point to be made and that’s this.

Porsche build sports cars and although the Taycan isn’t a sports thoroughbred it’s from the same stable and this will guide the creation of their products.

Every Porsche can stop from 60 in half the time that it takes to reach it. Is it necessary for a Turbo S to reach a standstill from 60 in less than half the time that it takes a basic RWD model? No, of course not, but that’s what Porsche do.

So, is it necessary for a Taycan that’s doing 130 mph on an autobahn to be able to reach 160 in the blink of an eye? Of course not, but it’s what Porsche do.

As for the range argument, so what? A Model 3 has a far better range and a superior charging infrastructure. It’s also 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost, so if a few extra miles are that important, buy a Tesla.

I do get where the thread is coming from. But when you talk about ‘optimisation’ all a Porsche engineer is going to hear is ‘compromise’.

The Taycan has a two speed gearbox because it makes it drive like a Porsche.
I think I know what you're saying, but the point is not whether the gearbox is an unnecessary splurge "to make it drive like a Porsche", but whether or not it actually takes away from the performance of the car (due to weight and shift delays), or at the very least is an less than ideal solution to some set of problems.

Trying to find an analogy, if you were trying to dig foundations for a building, and someone company said they will dig the whole thing it with a golden shovel - the argument here is not that the shovel made of gold is unnecessary, but that an excavator would do a much better job at it.

 

kempez

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I think the problem is what you mean about the 'Performance of the car' and what Porsche mean by the same phrase. Porsche wouldn't have designed the car with a gearbox (at the time), if they thought it didn't need or shouldn't have a gearbox. They've designed it for use cases that they see their customers using the car and it sounds like it's not the use case you have in mind.

For me the gearbox adds to the experience driving the car. The car is also excellent at estimating range at cruise speeds (motorways etc), as well as holding the range figures it has for those kind of speeds. Is that a function of the way the drive-train works specific to the Taycan, or software? No idea, but the car as a package is excellent at high speed cruising as has been proven in many reviews/video's on the net (out of spec reviews/State of Charge).

I won't say that Tesla drive-train isn't better or more efficient. Tesla have the best drive-train out there and also the best software. But that's not Porsche's fault, it's Tesla's innovation and USP, alongside their excellent charging network/network strategy
 

tchavei

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I swear I read somewhere that somebody asked about the "shifting" feel when going from 1st to 2nd. Why it felt inefficient and noticable. Apparently someone at Porsche answered that they did it on purpose so that the driver would feel a similar experience to ICE cars. That they could have made it imperceptible but chose not to on purpose.

Hearsay but it makes so much sense knowing Porsche
 

Andy0565

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I think I know what you're saying, but the point is not whether the gearbox is an unnecessary splurge "to make it drive like a Porsche", but whether or not it actually takes away from the performance of the car (due to weight and shift delays), or at the very least is an less than ideal solution to some set of problems.

Trying to find an analogy, if you were trying to dig foundations for a building, and someone company said they will dig the whole thing it with a golden shovel - the argument here is not that the shovel made of gold is unnecessary, but that an excavator would do a much better job at it.
Understood. The problem is, if you’re known for digging holes with golden shovels and you turn up with an excavator, everyone will be disappointed because there are people who are much better at digging holes with excavators.

Having run much smaller businesses than Porsche and agonised over decisions and alternatives with teams of people, I don’t believe for one minute that the decision to stick a gear box in the Taycan was taken until every alternative that has been discussed on here was thoroughly debated and dismissed.

Can you imagine the reviews without it?

‘Well Porsche have tried to build an electric 911 but it runs out of puff at 125 mph.

or maybe

Porsche have achieved the impossible with an electric motor that pulls from 0 to 165 but at half a millimetre quid, who’s gonna buy it?
 

whitex

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Understood. The problem is, if you’re known for digging holes with golden shovels and you turn up with an excavator, everyone will be disappointed because there are people who are much better at digging holes with excavators.

Having run much smaller businesses than Porsche and agonised over decisions and alternatives with teams of people, I don’t believe for one minute that the decision to stick a gear box in the Taycan was taken until every alternative that has been discussed on here was thoroughly debated and dismissed.

Can you imagine the reviews without it?

‘Well Porsche have tried to build an electric 911 but it runs out of puff at 125 mph.

or maybe

Porsche have achieved the impossible with an electric motor that pulls from 0 to 165 but at half a millimetre quid, who’s gonna buy it?
I don't know the official complete stats, but based on my conversation with a number of dealers (spent over a year cold calling dealers all over the country trying to find an allocation - often shooting the breeze with the SA's I reached), they tell me most of their Taycan buyers are first time Porsche buyers. A large percentage of those are switching out of other EV's - Tesla primarily. My guess majority of Taycan buyers don't care if it can do over 125mph. I would bet that a quad-motor 1,200hp version Taycan which tops out at 125mph would outsell a current dual motor TTS with a transmission and a higher top end speed. Porsche could offer them both and see, or make the transmissions (4 of them since 4 motors) optional on the 1,200hp car and see if people prefer lighter, faster 0-125 vs. higher top speed.
 


Avantgarde

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I don't know the official complete stats, but based on my conversation with a number of dealers (spent over a year cold calling dealers all over the country trying to find an allocation - often shooting the breeze with the SA's I reached), they tell me most of their Taycan buyers are first time Porsche buyers. A large percentage of those are switching out of other EV's - Tesla primarily. My guess majority of Taycan buyers don't care if it can do over 125mph. I would bet that a quad-motor 1,200hp version Taycan which tops out at 125mph would outsell a current dual motor TTS with a transmission and a higher top end speed. Porsche could offer them both and see, or make the transmissions (4 of them since 4 motors) optional on the 1,200hp car and see if people prefer lighter, faster 0-125 vs. higher top speed.
Except that is not how you build and maintain a brand proposition. If porsche walked away from their fundamental principles every time they came up with a model which they sell to "new" customers who would not necessarily expect certain aspects of the porsche experience "because they have not driven a porsche before" we would end up with quite a different product portfolio today.

With all due respect this debate (not the 2-speed gearbox) is utterly unnecessary. Having worked for an auto company for 10 years, having a bunch of automotive engineer friends, and knowing how some of these decisions are made, I don't think there is any chance that porsche with its optimization freak engineers put a 2 speed gearbox into one of the greatly engineered models, only to realize after the fact that it was completely useless. I am open minded and acknowledge that automotive history is full of engineering faliures. But what is the primary (and only) evidence for this argument? "look at 0-60 time of a Taycan, it is more than a Tesla Plaid, so there you go I proved 2-speed gearbox is unnecessary". And everyone who does not accept this uber-flawed proposition are "missing the point". Well its more like.. we are DIS-missing the point.
 

cityhpper

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Well, I do like the gearbox in the Taycan. I don't expect that it is that heavy either, compared to other options available for these cars. Would be interesting if someone knew the actual mass of it.

My two latest cars prior to the Taycan was a Model S Raven, and a BMW M550d xDrive with some extra tuning. The Model S was very impressive up to 120 km/h, but from there and upwards it felt a bit more "sluggish". The BMW on the other hand, really came alive around these speeds. Driving my Taycan across Europe last summer, brought back fond memories of how it felt to drive the M550 on the same roads. Pretty shure the two-speed gearbox, along with the driving dynamics of the Taycan, contributed fairly much to this...
 

buruburu

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Well, I do like the gearbox in the Taycan. I don't expect that it is that heavy either, compared to other options available for these cars. Would be interesting if someone knew the actual mass of it.

My two latest cars prior to the Taycan was a Model S Raven, and a BMW M550d xDrive with some extra tuning. The Model S was very impressive up to 120 km/h, but from there and upwards it felt a bit more "sluggish". The BMW on the other hand, really came alive around these speeds. Driving my Taycan across Europe last summer, brought back fond memories of how it felt to drive the M550 on the same roads. Pretty shure the two-speed gearbox, along with the driving dynamics of the Taycan, contributed fairly much to this...
According to this article. 70kg for axle + transmission. Transmission by itself is 16kg. Effectively inconsequential weight in relation to the total overall weight of the car.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/porsche-taycan-a-look-at-its-motors-transmission-and-dynamic-chassis/
 


Raphie

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Tesla engineered for cost cutting boredom, Porsche engineered for passion.
Pick you poison.
 

charliemathilde

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#neverscrollup

the gearbox exists because that was the only way the j1 platform could hit the minimum saleable range targets with the battery tech and power train efficiency they had.

The End
 

 
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