Need a Class Action Lawsuit - Porsche Mobile Charger

[daveo4EV]

keep in mind:

• Porsche has known about this issue for at least two years now - https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/nema-14-50-supply-cable-heat-data.1940/
• the solution is probably a new 15" cable with 8/6 AWG wire instead of the 10 AWG wire
• they have decided to do nothing even though the cable is modular and easily swapped by design
• the COG's on a 6/8 AWG wire vs. the 10 AWG wire they are currently supplying has got to be trivial (less than $10 per cable worse case - probably way less)
  • design and new manufacturing would be some upfront costs, but the COG's have got to be trivial once design is approved and in production
• the European version has far fewer issues with different supply cables - so the core unit may not be horrible
• this unit is like $3000'ish or 5x the cost of comparable units with no issues

it seems like they don't want to refund the units, and they don't want to fix the units, and they are in this situation because they cheap'd out on 15" of wire that is the wrong AWG specification.

it confuses me why they are not addressing this more directly - and costs for distributing new power supply cables - while not cheap - has got to be cheaper than the labor costs for software updates that they can't do OTA so your vehicle has to be in the dealers service bay for 3 days while a tech babysitting USB-flash drive update proceedures while a 12V external power supply is attached to keep the car alive during the brain transplant.

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[slothinker]

As I recall someone was contacted by a rep. of the Porsche NA president who said he'd investigate and get back w/in a week (or so?). Hasn't it been more than a week?

 

[daveo4EV]

As I recall someone was contacted by a rep. of the Porsche NA president who said he'd investigate and get back w/in a week (or so?). Hasn't it been more than a week?

I think we still have a week or so

@snstevens is currently talking to someone from PCNA I believe

I expect the response will be "we have nothing to share at this time but are working the problem" type of corporate-speak - I don't think Porsche fully realized that this is a real problem and are not prepared to actually deal with it.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I expect the response will be "we have nothing to share at this time but are working the problem" type of corporate-speak - I don't think Porsche fully realized that this is a real problem and are not prepared to actually deal with it.

My take on this is that Porsche are fully aware of the problem, of the gap in their testing that allowed this design flaw to ship, of the solution and the cost of that solution. They probably don't have a good handle on the timeline. Their official response is what they can legally get away with - at least until they can tame their other logistics issues. They're not acknowledging/issuing a mea culpa because it's not in their genes - never have, never will publicly admit something they made/designed is subpar, but they always worked on fixing it (not fixing the relationship with the customer, but fixing the flaw). And I'm talking about exploding engines (literally), faulty metallurgy, insufficient sealing (oil or water)/bracing/reinforcing etc. Small consolation for those who paid for those faulty chargers (or engines, or...), I know.

 

[tomdfw1]

yes the PMCC/PMC+ is technically a J-1772 EVSE (well technically it uses either J-1772 or an ISO standard that is a bit more robust @AndiL help me out here please with the ISO standard reference) - Porsche is not helping with the name of their product.

but the PMCC/PMC+ are North American standards compliant EVSE's (or at least they are supposed to be - but alas…) - but honestly they aren't because Porsche is doing a few things with the latest update - they are admitting:

1. that there are reliablity/thermal issues running at full 40 amps - so yeah out stuff can't handle the load…
2. they have quietly announced that really their EVSE only works with VW/Audi/Porsche vehicles - another disappointment IMHO - and yeah that standard J-1772 connector on the end of our cable - well just kidding - our stuff really won't charge any other EV - unlikely every other EVSE sold in North America
3. Yeah we have the most expensive mobile EVSE on the market right now ($3200 when no included with the vehicle) But don't use it at it's full 9.6 kW charge rate, and don't expect it to charge your other J-1772 vehicles - really only use it with our vehicles, and don't push it too hard - it will get mad.

EVSE's are like USB power bricks - they really should work with any device - since they are just raw power feed - and eventually you should just have a robust/single L2 EVSE in your home and it will meet all of your EV charging needs because it's not vendor specific…Porsche is disappointing in this regards.

I agree - we all paid for a 40 amp 9.6 kW EVSE and with this latest update Porsche no longer provides that product due to product design defects that the EVSE can not operate at it's published capacities with out potential thermal/reliability issues.

Went to Amazon to look at "EVSEs" and they ALL call themselves a charger: Wallbox, Electrify America, Autel, BESEnergy, JuiceBox, Splitvolt....ALL of them call them a charger.

I

 

[daveo4EV]

Went to Amazon to look at "EVSEs" and they ALL call themselves a charger: Wallbox, Electrify America, Autel, BESEnergy, JuiceBox, Splitvolt....ALL of them call them a charger.

I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station

A charging station, also known as a charge point or electric vehicle supply equipment (EVSE), is a piece of equipment that supplies electrical power for charging plug-in electric vehicles (including electric cars, electric trucks, electric buses, neighborhood electric vehicles, and plug-in hybrids).
There are two main types: AC charging stations and DC fast chargers. Batteries can only be charged with direct current (DC) electric power, while most electricity is delivered from the power grid as alternating current (AC). For this reason, most electric vehicles have an onboard charger with an AC-to-DC converter (a rectifier). At an AC charging station, power is supplied to the onboard charger. DC fast chargers facilitate higher power charging, which requires much larger AC-to-DC rectifiers, so the converter is built as part of the charging station and DC power is supplied directly to the vehicle, bypassing the onboard converter. Most fully electric car models can accept both AC and DC power.

an EVSE is required to charge your vehicle - but it's the raw power source…the PMC+/PMCC is an EVSE.

it's easier - but none of them charge the car - the J-1772 standard doesn't allow for that - and none of them can have omnipotent knowledge of all the particulars of charging all the different vehicle batteries they size, or their taper rates as they get close to full or manage their thermals during the charging cycle - an EVSE (like the PMC+/PMCC) provide "raw power AC power 120V/240V @ XX amps" - and each vendor/vehicle-maker implements an on-board charger + software that knows how to charge their particular battery - and provides the AC to DC conversion required by all batteries (they are not native AC power) - the power coming OUT of the J-1772 connector is AC power - not DC - that alone proves they are not chargers - they do not even deliver DC power which is required to actually charge the battery…(Fast DC chargers bypass the onboard charger of the vehicle and pump DC electrons directly into the battery - it's a more complex relationship which is why it's harder to make all the FastDC charges reliable with all makes and models of EV's)

it's easier to call them chargers - but they are no more chargers than a USB brick is a charger - again with phones/laptops/headphones the actual "knowledge" of how to charge the battery and how close to full it is and what not is all in the device and the USB power supply is just raw 5V? DC powered electrons.

charger is a more friendly term for products than Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) - but they are not in fact chargers.

an EVSE does a few things - but the most important ones are as follows:

1. Safety - no power is flowing in the vehicle charging cord if it's not plugged into a vehicle - this is for safety so it's inert/safe while not connected to the vehicle - it can't electrocute you while it's not plugged in
2. reports/indicates/tells the vehicle the maximum current flow (amps) it supports - so the vehicle know how much power it can request
   1. this why your 11 kW taycan only pulls 9.6 kw when using a PMC+/PMCC or only 6 kW from the ChargePoint Stations in the parking garage in Valley Fair mall in San Jose, CA
   2. it's also why your 11 kW Taycan only charges at 1.44 kW when plugged into a household outlet - the EVSE reports it can only do 12 amps when it's on a 120V/15 amp circuit.
3. the EVSE does not push power into battery - the car requests the EVSE to let the powerflow - the EVSE is more like a water-valve - not at all like a water filter…think irrigation controller - it simply provides flow-control (water flowing or not) - but doesn't modify the water flowing through it.

 

[whitex]

Not all class action lawsuits result in $5 remedies so get your facts correct. What Tom was advocating was getting Porsche to fix the defective charger. E.G the LG class action took 2 yrs, never went to court resulted in owners getting 10 warranty extend up to $3200 for loss food. However, there is sn easier way to get Porsche to replace the Mobil charger issue. Ask dealer to file a warranty claim. When it’s denied request arbitration. If you have the smarts you do not need a lawyer for arbitration

Vast majority of class action lawsuit result in token compensation. Are there exceptions, sure, but about as likely as winning a lottery. In this case the most you could hope for is a new 40A charger in a couple of years - $200 value. As for arbitration, you'd lose there since you still technically can set it to 40A. Maybe, if you are lucky, they'd give you a firmware rollback.

 

[daveo4EV]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station



an EVSE is required to charge your vehicle - but it's the raw power source…the PMC+/PMCC is an EVSE.

it's easier - but none of them charge the car - the J-1772 standard doesn't allow for that - and none of them can have omnipotent knowledge of all the particulars of charging all the different vehicle batteries they size, or their taper rates as they get close to full or manage their thermals during the charging cycle - an EVSE (like the PMC+/PMCC) provide "raw power AC power 120V/240V @ XX amps" - and each vendor/vehicle-maker implements an on-board charger + software that knows how to charge their particular battery - and provides the AC to DC conversion required by all batteries (they are not native AC power) - the power coming OUT of the J-1772 connector is AC power - not DC - that alone proves they are not chargers - they do not even deliver DC power which is required to actually charge the battery…(Fast DC chargers bypass the onboard charger of the vehicle and pump DC electrons directly into the battery - it's a more complex relationship which is why it's harder to make all the FastDC charges reliable with all makes and models of EV's)

it's easier to call them chargers - but they are no more chargers than a USB brick is a charger - again with phones/laptops/headphones the actual "knowledge" of how to charge the battery and how close to full it is and what not is all in the device and the USB power supply is just raw 5V? DC powered electrons.

charger is a more friendly term for products than Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) - but they are not in fact chargers.

an EVSE does a few things - but the most important ones are as follows:

1. Safety - no power is flowing in the vehicle charging cord if it's not plugged into a vehicle - this is for safety so it's inert/safe while not connected to the vehicle - it can't electrocute you while it's not plugged in
2. reports/indicates/tells the vehicle the maximum current flow (amps) it supports - so the vehicle know how much power it can request
   1. this why your 11 kW taycan only pulls 9.6 kw when using a PMC+/PMCC or only 6 kW from the ChargePoint Stations in the parking garage in Valley Fair mall in San Jose, CA
   2. it's also why your 11 kW Taycan only charges at 1.44 kW when plugged into a household outlet - the EVSE reports it can only do 12 amps when it's on a 120V/15 amp circuit.
3. the EVSE does not push power into battery - the car requests the EVSE to let the powerflow - the EVSE is more like a water-valve - not at all like a water filter…think irrigation controller - it simply provides flow-control (water flowing or not) - but doesn't modify the water flowing through it.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...se-vehicle-connectors-how-does-it-work.12207/

the link above also might be interesting - the J-1772 protocol is pretty simple and doesn't offer a lot of "smarts" - the connector reflects this - as it's mostly a 3 wire affair with 2 high voltage lines and an electrical ground - and two low voltage "lines" for communication between the vehicle and the EVSE…because they are simple - all EVSE's should work with all vehicles, and all vehicles only need to understand a few commands and deal with a raw flow of AC power.

 

[whitex]

Guys it is important everyone understand the Porsche warranty and Porsche mobil Charger Connect technical specs before buying a new charger or filing a claim. I have taken the time to read and here is what you all need to know:
1. If you go out and buy a different mobil charger that is not approved and supplied by Porsche you void the 8 year /100,000 battery warranty in your car. Read the fine print ! Potentially your battery fails , you file a claim with Porsche and Porsche asserts you voided the warranty by using a non approved supplied Porsche charger. Now the fun begins trying to get them to honor the warranty- uphill battle foresure.
2. You can only use supply cables that have been approved and supplied by Porsche

You are 100% incorrect here. If you were right, charging at ANY non-Porsche public charger would void your warranty. AC charger is actually onboard of the car, so the EVSE is nothing more than a glorified extension cable with a bunch of safety (for the human, not the car) built in. Technically a DC charger has an almost direct access to the HV battery since the charger is outside of the car, but even there, no, DC charging at non-Porsche chargers will not void your warranty..

 

[whitex]

Exactly this.

It's absolute bullshit that the charger performs half as well as it's supposed to. Especially so for the folks who bought the expensive model with touch screen.

But time/stress/sanity has value too. I haven't thought about this crap charger at all since I replaced it, save for the forum posts about it.

Absolutely true, not worth the effort to sue Porsche individually. It takes very little effort (non-actually) to not exclude yourself from a class action, should some lawyer decided it's worth their effort.

 

[whitex]

You guys cant read : I am only speaking of the mobile charger supplied by Porsche not public charging stations. The entire threat is re the mobil charger. Read the manuals
" The maximum achievable charging power is up to 9.6kw

There is no difference between a mobile EVSE and a non-mobile EVSE. If you hang it on the wall, it's no longer mobile (also applies to PMC+/PMCC - Porsche sells a box mount).

 

[whitex]

5. Service manager confirmed if I used a 3rd party mobile charger it violates what is stated in the manual. If my battery damaged Porsche can potentially deny the warranty - do you want to really take this chance. The dealers response to this question is don't tell them you are using a 3 rd party mobile charger . lol not a good idea if it ever goes to arbitration or court . Perjure yourself to enforce warranty - now thats not good advice.

Absolutely incorrect understanding of the text on the part of the service manager. Porsche officially states Taycans can be charged by any SEA J1772 compliant charger (mobile or not, there is no distinction in the standard). The bit about using only Porsche supplied cables applies to when using the PMC+/PMCC (i.e. don't try to use your own cables with PMC/PMCC+).

 

[whitex]

I’d love to hear the exact way in which a non-Porsche EVSE damaged my battery.

Not one following a standard, but I could imagine a malicious actor building an "EV Zapper" similar to "USB zapper" which is purpose built to try to damage what you plug it into. A proper charge pump, build up enough voltage and perhaps energy, then unleash it on an unsuspecting onboard AC charger like a lightening strike, perhaps though the pilot line to fry the digital electronics. It would probably still not damage the battery, but AC charger might not survive.

 

[Archimedes]

You really don't add any value to this topic. If you don't like it, please don't read it and move on and stop denigrating others that feel this is a concern that needs to be addressed by Porsche.

Reminds me of main stream media looking the other way at Hunter Biden and all his lies and deceit and rather scream squirrel about a Republican who didn't wipe their ass properly and send FBI over to their house with the SWAT team.

Oh Jesus.

 

[Jhenson29]

Not one following a standard, but I could imagine a malicious actor

You’re right.

Could also be hiding a bomb that blows up the car when plugged in. That could damage the battery.

Could also be hiding an airplane that flies the car to 35,000 feet and drops the car into the ocean. That could damage the battery.

Could be hiding a time travel device that transports my car to the Cretaceous period and allow the car to be eaten by a T-Rex. That could damage the battery.

Could be hiding a volcano that erupts and covers the car in lava. That could damage the battery.

Could melt the receptacle and catch the house on fire with the car inside. That could damage the….. Oh wait, no, that’s Porsche’s EVSE. That one is covered under warranty.

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