NEMA 14-50 Supply cable heat data

[Jhenson29]

ask them if you can drive the vehilce in canada where there are _NO_ Electrify America fast DC chargers?

You can go into Canada. You just have to pop back out to the US every couple hundred miles for charging. Like swimming and coming back up for air. Seems reasonable.

Lol, not especially related, but made me think of it, I had to drive into Canada during Covid. I’m always harassed a bunch getting into Canada, but during Covid was especially ridiculous. Customs held me for hours trying to tell me I wasn’t essential, even though I had all of the paper work cleared ahead of time. So, anyway, they finally relent and let me in, but tell me I can only go to the hotel, work, and absolutely nowhere else. I asked if I could stop for gas since it was like 900 miles from Detroit to Ottawa and back.

She said no!

I stopped for gas anyway.

Sponsored

 

[daveo4EV]

Hello,

my Taycan has been charging at 40 amps for over 2 hours this morning at roughly 64 degrees ambient temperature. I gathered the following data from various points in the charging circuit:

all measurements are on Fahrenheit:

I think the NEMA 14-50 cable is getting too hot - probably due to inappropriate wire gauge - the label says rated for 16 amps - and thickness is appropriate for 16 amps - I'm betting they didn't do the proper gauge for North America, and instead are working European standards - 3 phase 16 amp rated wire - but what do I know.

the supply Cable from the sub-panel is less than 90F - and the breaker itself is less than 90F - but the Porsche provided supply cable is running 2x temp vs. the rest of the system - something seems wrong.

the temperature of the J-1772 cable and the J-1772 Plug are below 90F - so no issues there.

thinking about this today - we're full circle now…Porsche did in fact have a problem - their components are "safe" but they do thermally stress "other" components of a charging system in residential…

their official response to this is…it's all good advise - but the Porsche EVSE's are thermally the worse performing EVSE's in North America…Porsche to date refuses to update/change/fold/spindle/mutilate their power supply cable to lower their thermal demands on other parts of the system.

But we have clear guidance on a "proper" install which we lacked when thread originally posted over 3 years ago…

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...-related-porsche-ntsb-article-analysis.13902/

Porsche also hopes to sell many many many Macan EV's - all of those it would seem will come with a PMC+/PMCC 9.6 kW EVSE for North America - so Porsche's plan would be pump more PMC+/PMCC with thermally "hot" power supply cables into the North American EV eco-system…

and then tell the Macan EV owners that using a non-Porsche EVSE will void their warranties - this will go well for them - I can totally see it.

it's going to be interesting to watch the Macan population "learn" all the same lessons - but at least the Macan is being sold into an environment where Porsche already:

• requires a hubble socket
• knows their unit has thermally demanding normal operational profile
• does not support 120V charging
• will void the warranty anytime anyone uses a non-Porsche EVSE
  • I'm awaiting the map updates that removes all the non-Porsche EVSE's from the Porsche PCM navigate database.
• has updated the labels on the EVSE power supply cords to claim it's rated for 40 amps with out changing the actual wire gauge
• and will come with the indecipherable warning stickers on the PMC+/PMCC already installed and the associated manual updates

so the Taycan community blazed this trail for all the Macan owners - I'm sure they will love EA/PMC+/PMCC as much as we do.

 

[Elroy]

To be clear, I do not believe he was referring to mobile charging stations. He was referring to the at home charging station that I wanted to replace/upgrade. I am going up to another Porsche service center later this morning to discuss it with that service manager and see if I get a different response since this overheating issue has been a problem since 2020 and I’m driving a model year 22 GTS with all the available upgrades to the PCM. I’m surprised that Porsche has not released replacement chargers or power cords or whatever.

 

[daveo4EV]

To be clear, I do not believe he was referring to mobile charging stations. He was referring to the at home charging station that I wanted to replace/upgrade. I am going up to another Porsche service center later this morning to discuss it with that service manager and see if I get a different response since this overheating issue has been a problem since 2020 and I’m driving a model year 22 GTS with all the available upgrades to the PCM. I’m surprised that Porsche has not released replacement chargers or power cords or whatever.

porsche’s official response is pretty clear - they currently see no issue with their EVSE - I highly doubt your service manage r can do anything or deviate from the official PCNA response …

see this link for Porsches formal and official response

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2022/MC-10222530-0001.pdf

and note this quote

Caution
The surface of the charger and associated equipment can become very hot under normal use. This is normal and not an indication of a defect in the charger. Observe the operating instructions provided with the charger, particularly the warnings and safety instructions.

Porsche has spoken on this issue

 

[Jhenson29]

To be clear, I do not believe he was referring to mobile charging stations. He was referring to the at home charging station that I wanted to replace/upgrade.

Doesn’t matter.

I’m surprised that Porsche has not released replacement chargers or power cords or whatever.

You’re better off just going with a 3rd party EVSE for home.

 

[daveo4EV]

To be clear, I do not believe he was referring to mobile charging stations. He was referring to the at home charging station that I wanted to replace/upgrade. I am going up to another Porsche service center later this morning to discuss it with that service manager and see if I get a different response since this overheating issue has been a problem since 2020 and I’m driving a model year 22 GTS with all the available upgrades to the PCM. I’m surprised that Porsche has not released replacement chargers or power cords or whatever.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...uide-to-the-porsche-evse-pmc-pmcc-pwcc.13886/

 

[dtich]

Doesn’t matter.

You’re better off just going with a 3rd party EVSE for home.

Resultant from my pre-vehicle arrival research done on this board and others I never even un-packed the Porsche EVSE from its softbag. It's still clipped into the boot of the car. I bought a ChargePoint, installed it myself next to the Tesla charger I had installed myself ten years ago (and worked faultlessly all that time). I have had zero issue with the ChargePoint. Plug in, car charges when it's supposed to, it sends me updates on how much it charged, etc. I've only had the car a few weeks but all perfectly easy and thought-free, no issues whatsoever.

Kind of bs that a manufacturer-supplied key part is so un-respected that I simply bypass it after paying some $1000+ for it. I left it in the car with the thought that I would keep it as a travel charger, same as I had one in the Tesla that I used when roadtripping to friends' homes, etc. Useful but not essential. Which sounds like a fine place for a semi-dud of a part.

 

[Jhenson29]

I bought a ChargePoint, installed it myself next to the Tesla charger I had installed myself ten years ago (and worked faultlessly all that time).

That’s it. You voided your warranty.

 

[daveo4EV]

it's also important to define a few terms:

• Charger - this is the module inside the vehicle that converts AC power to DC power required to charge the battery
• EVSE - PMC+/PMCC - these are _NOT_ chargers - they are external power supplies - they are an on/off switch to start/stop the flow of power under the vehicle's onboard charger's control
• Overheat: an item that fails to operate due to excessive temperatures

the PMC+/PMCC power supply cables do not in fact overheat - I have not personally experienced any of my unit's overheating. Also to date there are zero reports of Porsche's Power supply cables "failing" due to any thermal excess.

Running "hot" is not the same as "overheating" - the Porsche power supply cable is rated for 105C operational temperature or 221F - the insulation on the power supply cable is rate to maintain it's integrity up to this operating temperature. To date I'm unaware of any reports of Porsche's power supply cables reaching their thermal failure point.

That's not to say that I believe their normal operating temperature is "ok" or desireable or even should be an operational goal. In my usage I routinely saw operating temperatures of 166F surface temperture. This is much hotter than other EVESE's I've experience, and is in my opinion an undesirable operational envelope - but it does not rise to the level of actually "overheating".

the Porsche EVSE's normal operating temperature is higher than I personally desire in a consumer electronic's device, and there are examples of alternative products that provide the same 9.6 kW charge rate and do not operate at similar temperatures.

Porsche's EVSE does thermally stress all components of a 50 amp 240V North American residential circuit and therefore all other components must also be designed/specified to integrate well and tolerate Porsche's normal operating thermal envelope - sufficient to note that most $12 NEMA 14-50 powersockets are probably not formally rated to handle hour's long operational temperatures 7 days a week of 160F+ - and we have examples of "lesser" NEMA 14-50 sockets demonstrating thermal stress induced failures (melting) when paired with a Porsche EVSE…it doesn't have to be this way, but Porsche's EVSE power supply cable is not in fact overheating - it's demonstrating a 90F-100F operational temperature rise/delta + ambient for 40 amp continuous load - which is exactly what the engineering tables expect/predict for 10 AWG wire. Porsche's insulation is sufficient o absorb and handle this temperature with out failing…so there is not technically an overheating problem.

The porsche EVSE sucks in my opinion (news I know) but it doesn't actually fail - it's just very demanding of it's enviroment and Porsche to date show no interest in changing it's operational parameters. it's a 40 amp EVSE that runs hot - their response is to "get over it" - our product is fine and well designed - and they are not technically wrong…

my units are no longer in use and I've purchased and routinely use other EVSE products that delviery 11 kW of power on a daily basis and also happen to operate at much lower operational temperatures vs. Porsche's design.

I value the ability for me to make a choice as an informed consumer and I've done so. But Porsche's units do not "overheat" - they just run hot as part of their normal operating process.

Porsche now has extensive operational documentation for a "correct" install for use with a PMC+/PMCC - to date I'm unaware of any operational issues with the PMC+/PMCC when following Prosche's recommended install process and equipment. It's a 40 amp/240V/9.6 kW EVSE that will routinely achive 165F operational temperatures - which is not technically a problem if all the elements of the system (breaker, supply wire, NEMA socket) are rated to handle this type of thermal load…

all that can be said is that other competitive/alternative 40 amp/240V/9.6 kW EVSE's do not have a similar thermal profile - but Porche's unit's technical do not overheat - they just run really hot - according to Porsche this is expected and normal given their design.

 

[dtich]

You know it's true, and I know all the correct terms and labels, but I stopped long ago using gospel names for many technical things around the house. Because if I said things like, "can you please plug in the home electric vehicle service equipment, Dear", my wife or current partner would look at me like I had a beanie hat and coke-bottle glasses on and make fun of me for several days. So, it's just a "charger" for daily speak.

 

[Elroy]

thinking about this today - we're full circle now…Porsche did in fact have a problem - their components are "safe" but they do thermally stress "other" components of a charging system in residential…

their official response to this is…it's all good advise - but the Porsche EVSE's are thermally the worse performing EVSE's in North America…Porsche to date refuses to update/change/fold/spindle/mutilate their power supply cable to lower their thermal demands on other parts of the system.

But we have clear guidance on a "proper" install which we lacked when thread originally posted over 3 years ago…

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...-related-porsche-ntsb-article-analysis.13902/

Porsche also hopes to sell many many many Macan EV's - all of those it would seem will come with a PMC+/PMCC 9.6 kW EVSE for North America - so Porsche's plan would be pump more PMC+/PMCC with thermally "hot" power supply cables into the North American EV eco-system…

and then tell the Macan EV owners that using a non-Porsche EVSE will void their warranties - this will go well for them - I can totally see it.

it's going to be interesting to watch the Macan population "learn" all the same lessons - but at least the Macan is being sold into an environment where Porsche already:

• requires a hubble socket
• knows their unit has thermally demanding normal operational profile
• does not support 120V charging
• will void the warranty anytime anyone uses a non-Porsche EVSE
  • I'm awaiting the map updates that removes all the non-Porsche EVSE's from the Porsche PCM navigate database.
• has updated the labels on the EVSE power supply cords to claim it's rated for 40 amps with out changing the actual wire gauge
• and will come with the indecipherable warning stickers on the PMC+/PMCC already installed and the associated manual updates

so the Taycan community blazed this trail for all the Macan owners - I'm sure they will love EA/PMC+/PMCC as much as we do.

 

[Elroy]

Just went to a Porsche Service Center.. it is different than my dealer. I very much respect the service manager there and the first thing he told me was that using a non-Porsche or Electrify America EVSE does not void the warranty for the battery in the Taycan.
We talked about the issue with charge malfunctions, particularly in warm conditions , which seems to be pretty common place and is not covered by a Porsche warranty. As we’ve discussed before on this forum, their only solution is to reduce the output by 50% during hotter times of the year.

Yesterday apparently Porsche released a new home charger that can be hardwired with up to a whole 100 amp circuit. It is apparently only available online here is the link:
https://shop.porsche.com/us/en-US/p/porsche-wall-charger-connect-B-HCHH0LAA/HCHH0LAA?dealer=4670

It seems like it may be a solution if you have $1600 to spend and want to stay with a Porsche unit. One will not get the benefit of the fastest charging time without having an onboard 19.2 kW charger. The 19.2 kW charger can be added onto a Taycan if it was not ordered that way from the factory. The cost for the part and dealer installation is close to $6000.

Sponsored