Taycan Turbo S vs. Model S Plaid - really by this much!?

[f1eng]

Ah, so your point was that OTA was inevitable for cars, I can agree with that. Electrification probably also inevitable at some point. BUT, somehow those inevitable things just came to Tesla first, and you know what, they did motivate the rest of the industry to get there quicker so they could compete. So yes, eventually Porsche would have probably made an EV, but it it wasn't for Tesla, it might have not happened for another 50 years.

I think Tesla have done some great stuff and reverse engineering their solutions will have given all makers lots of useful low cost R&D but the thing driving the speed is legislation not competition with Tesla.
No IC engined cars will be legal to sell in some countries from 2030, so everybody is having to get their skates on wrt producing a wide range of EVs.
For a long time Tesla and Nissan were the only choices here, now there are lots.
I went plug in hybrid with the longest electric range I could find in a car 4 years ago, now I am selling 2 performance V8s to buy a Taycan.
I quite liked the model 3 Tesla but didn't want a faux leather interior and neither of the available colours appeals so that was out.
Too many of the choices are SUVs which I neither need nor like and in the end the only EV I tried I was prepared to buy was the Taycan Cross Turismo.

Sponsored

 

[feye]

So, you never use sport mode to accelerate past 60-70mph?
You never drive in normal/range and then accelerate more than just a bit?

Interesting. Not how I drive my daily driver... but to each their own.
That does explain why you don't feel it.

I love the suspension, I love the steering.
But the transmission pisses me off.

I hardly ever drive in sports mode. No need, the car has plenty of power in normal mode. I also sit low enough, so no need to lower the suspension. Really don't see the point in my daily driving. Maybe I am not a worthy sports car customer and should switch to an EQS?

 

[feye]

Ah, so your point was that OTA was inevitable for cars, I can agree with that. Electrification probably also inevitable at some point. BUT, somehow those inevitable things just came to Tesla first, and you know what, they did motivate the rest of the industry to get there quicker so they could compete.

Proof T came first?

So yes, eventually Porsche would have probably made an EV, but it it wasn't for Tesla, it might have not happened for another 50 years.

This is ridiculous fanboy garbage! Please read my 2 posts.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/omg-elon-really-does-lie.6448/post-92644

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/omg-elon-really-does-lie.6448/post-93213

If you don't understand gov regulations and how these car companies make money, then I really don't know what else I can say.

Tesla changed their OTA policy to update via cellular only for safety critical updates and warranty risk avoidance updates (which by the way include the updates which nerf your battery). All the rest of them you have to do via WiFi. A wild suggestion if you don't have WiFi where you park, your phone can act as an access point and Tesla can download using that while you are driving (and it will even stop and resume if you leave the car in the middle of the update). Beyond the OTA updates though, if I was you I would update the modem if you have no 3G coverage where you drive your Tesla so you can get services like maps showing on the main screen. Interesting thing, in the USA Tesla stopped shipping 3G modems before they made 90D's, perhaps where you live they used up their old supplies on S90D's first? In any case, a modem update in the USA is $200, which should be a worth while update, especially that S90D would have come with free connectivity/data plan for life, which transfers to the new modem (unless car was resold as CPO by Tesla in the last couple of years).

So basically, I got screwed with old hardware the way I got screwed with the battery? And you now ask me to invest, so I can agree with fanboy fantasies?

 

[fullmetalbaal]

I hardly ever drive in sports mode. No need, the car has plenty of power in normal mode. I also sit low enough, so no need to lower the suspension. Really don't see the point in my daily driving. Maybe I am not a worthy sports car customer and should switch to an EQS?

Then I can see how the transmission is not a problem for you.
There's no "worthy vs. not worthy" in my book. If the car does what you want it to do - great!

I'm just saying for me personally, the transmission has been a downside.
If I could switch out the rear motor + transmission and install Plaid-style motors instead, I would.
(I'm not saying Tesla specifically, but a motor that has the power and can efficiently hit the speeds without a 2 gear transmission in the mix)

 

[ORZOWEI]

In my Taycan, the entertainment is now better than in my previous Tesla !
I can watch TV, Netflix, Prime video, Disney+, Youtube, etc, surf the net...
I can listen to Spotify, Deezer, Apple Music, Amazon music, etc...
I can play any android game...
So I can use my Taycan touchscreen with any android application !
I just bought a 260€ device connected to the usb port.

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005003028957404.html?pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000023327307522","ship_from":"CN"}&gps-id=pcStoreJustForYou&scm=1007.23125.137358.0&scm_id=1007.23125.137358.0&scm-url=1007.23125.137358.0&pvid=2c0d266d-ec05-4be0-8896-bb89e79d1794&spm=a2g0o.store_pc_home.smartJustForYou_6000429800194.0

Thnks for the link, that device seems to be very interesting!
Could you share some pictures or video playing with it in the Taycan?

 

[ORZOWEI]

BBC

Taycan has Apple Car play so you can plug into the matrix if really need to.

It should also have Android auto, - as all the other VAG brands already support - because not all Porsche owners (like me) want to be in the basket of Apples...

 

[jmi91]

Thnks for the link, that device seems to be very interesting!
Could you share some pictures or video playing with it in the Taycan?

Yes ! (sorry for the bad quality :-( )

 

[ORZOWEI]

Yes ! (sorry for the bad quality :-( )

Thank you very much, I just ordered one!

 

[Jhenson29]

Electrification probably also inevitable at some point. BUT, somehow those inevitable things just came to Tesla first, and you know what, they did motivate the rest of the industry to get there quicker so they could compete. So yes, eventually Porsche would have probably made an EV, but it it wasn't for Tesla, it might have not happened for another 50 years.

I keep seeing people claim versions of this; not everyone, but enough.

…but does anyone have any actual evidence that without Tesla, there would be no Taycan?

…or at least an argument that’s not just post hoc?

I’m just looking at Tesla’s unit sales leading up to 2015 when the Mission E debuted (not the large numbers they are today)…the fact that there were other electric cars in this time period (e.g. Leaf, i3)….and noting that Porsche already had production electrification in hybrids in 2010 along with plug-in electric hybrids not far behind.

I’m not personally arguing one way or another. I haven’t done near enough research, nor am I interested enough to do so.

But given the timelines and the only argument being “Well, Tesla already had an EV, so that’s why Porsche made one.” well, let’s just say I’m not 100% convinced.

 

[whitex]

I keep seeing people claim versions of this; not everyone, but enough.

…but does anyone have any actual evidence that without Tesla, there would be no Taycan?

…or at least an argument that’s not just post hoc?

I’m just looking at Tesla’s unit sales leading up to 2015 when the Mission E debuted (not the large numbers they are today)…the fact that there were other electric cars in this time period (e.g. Leaf, i3)….and noting that Porsche already had production electrification in hybrids in 2010 along with plug-in electric hybrids not far behind.

I’m not personally arguing one way or another. I haven’t done near enough research, nor am I interested enough to do so.

But given the timelines and the only argument being “Well, Tesla already had an EV, so that’s why Porsche made one.” well, let’s just say I’m not 100% convinced.

Well, the overall summary is Elon decided that in order to progress EV's, he needs to make an EV car that people desire and want to driver, not because it's electric, but because of the way that it drives and feels. He was right.

All the previous EV's and hybrids made for great celebrity photo ops, hey look at this singer or actor driving a Prius, but beyond that, there was no mass appeal for EV's. Elon succeeded in making EV's S3XY (pun intended), but even the very beginning the big auto makers were dismissing it as something they could never make any money on (since Tesla was losing tons of money too). I don't remember if it was the VWG or GM CEO that publicly mocked Elon even as recently as 2013, claiming EV's will never be profitable beyond compliance cars which had their value based on carbon credits alone, because each lost money. Your timelines are a bit off too, Roadster prototype was unveiled in July 2006, so just over 9 years before Mission E prototype was unveiled in Sept 2015. First roadster was delivered in Feb 2018, so over a decade before the Taycan). Notice that Porsche and the rest of the industry ignored the Roadster completely, probably because it was a 2 seater with limited mass appeal. Model S success is when everyone started noticing. Model S came out in 2012 and its sales were production limited since introduction, until Model 3 release. It took a couple of years before the "other guys" decided this is not a temporary fad selling a few cars here and there, like a Lambo. A large percentage of Tesla customers buying $100K cars were moving from Toyotas and Hondas, meaning they were willing to spend twice what they normally (or even ever) spent on a car in the past. I've been a part of Tesla community since 2013, Elon really succeeded in creating a extremely desirable car. Heck, look at me, I would have never bought a Leaf. Once I switched to Teslas (bought 4 Model S since 2013) I never wanted to go ICE again. I've been looking to switch brands (why is a different topic for a different thread) but guess what, I couldn't find an EV alternative until Taycan Cross Turismo, so I was stuck unwilling to go back to ICE! Now ,that is what I call a success is making EV's desirable cars. For all the issue I have with the guy, Elon really did speed up the EV car revolution by one or more decades, probably 2 or possibly 3. To this day Tesla elicits a response akin to people buying a high end Porsche, but it's for a $40K car. I know a few people who just love their Model 3's, looking for reasons to drive them (heck, after getting the Model 3 my mother in law who usually avoided driving her previous cars started to plan a multi-day road trip, she loves driving the car so much!).

Of course you can never prove this mathematically, all of the above is circumstantial evidence, but there is a ton of it, and you cannot prove that Porsche would have had the Taycan today without Tesla either. Large, established companies don't like to radically change their products. Toyota to this day is still resisting EV's with all their might, and VWG is still working on hydrogen based clean fuels.

 

[Jhenson29]

Well, the overall summary is Elon decided that in order to progress EV's, he needs to make an EV car that people desire and want to driver, not because it's electric, but because of the way that it drives and feels. He was right.

Oh, Elon decided. I’m glad that Elon taught Porsche that people want to buy cars they “desire and want to drive”. Porsche was clueless about people wanting a car based on “how it drives and feels”. All new territory for them.

I don't remember if it was the VWG or GM CEO that publicly mocked Elon even as recently as 2013, claiming EV's will never be profitable beyond compliance cars which had their value based on

K…I’ll have to find the link later, but I’m pretty sure Porsche is also on record as saying that their decision to make a fully elective vehicle was largely driven by the success of their hybrids.

Your timelines are a bit off too,

Which timeline is off? Specifically. Which specific statement about timelines is wrong?

Regardless, my point was that Tesla unit sales leading to the Mission E debut in 2015 were not the large numbers they are now. Go back as far as you want before that. They didn’t get any better. And 2015 is just when they debuted the Mission E. I’ve never found any information on when they started it.

Porsche is probably more responsible than me and started it earlier than the day before it’s due.?

And I’m glad Tesla was around so the Mission E wasn’t a boring, ugly EV. ?

And I know it wasn’t a production car, but it helps establish a timeline for when they were looking at/working on BEV.

Roadster prototype was unveiled in July 2006, so just over 9 years before Mission E prototype was unveiled in Sept 2015.

So Porsche made the Mission E because of a limited run of Elises converted to an electric drivetrain that doubled their price?

Elon really did speed up the EV car revolution by one or more decades, probably 2 or possibly 3.

Proof? So far, your only argument has been you think his cars looked better than other EVs available around the same time.

To this day Tesla elicits a response akin to people buying a high end Porsche, but it's for a $40K car.

Not to people who actually buy a Porsche…

Of course you can never prove this mathematically, all of the above is circumstantial evidence, but there is a ton of it,

…is there though? Are you going to share this evidence later?

and you cannot prove that Porsche would have had the Taycan today without Tesla either.

But I’m not the one making a claim. You are.

You can’t make a claim and then defend it by saying I can’t prove the opposite…

Large, established companies don't like to radically change their products.

And I showed Porsche had established incremental work on electrification.

 

[whitex]

Oh, Elon decided. I’m glad that Elon taught Porsche that people want to buy cars they “desire and want to drive”. Porsche was clueless about people wanting a car based on “how it drives and feels”. All new territory for them.

Yep, how an EV feels was brand new territory to Porsche. Without Tesla they would have most likely continued to build ICE along with Toyota. Notice that Toyota still hasn't concluded based on their more extensive then Porsche experience and successful sales of hybrids, that they want to build BEV's, probably because Tesla didn't steal as many sales from Toyota as from Porsche.

Which timeline is off? Specifically. Which specific statement about timelines is wrong?

You were implying Porsche had hybrids before Tesla had BEV (2010), but by 2010 Tesla had the Roadster on sale 2 years already.

Regardless, my point was that Tesla unit sales leading to the Mission E debut in 2015 were not the large numbers they are now. Go back as far as you want before that. They didn’t get any better. And 2015 is just when they debuted the Mission E. I’ve never found any information on when they started it.

By the time Mission E was unveiled in 2015, Tesla Model S sold approximately 100,000 Model S's (total).

And I know it wasn’t a production car, but it helps establish a timeline for when they were looking at/working on BEV.

Yep, 9 years after Tesla did, at least based on when the first prototypes were unveiled.

So Porsche made the Mission E because of a limited run of Elises converted to an electric drivetrain that doubled their price?

No, read what I said, they started looking to make a Mission E because they saw the ever growing Model S sales. Unless of course you have some proof that Mission E was already planned prior to 2012?

Proof? So far, your only argument has been you think his cars looked better than other EVs available around the same time.

As I said before, no mathematical proof. The argument is that before Tesla, only celebrities and sandal wearing green peace virtual signaling folks bought BEV's. Tesla changed all that, proved that EV's can be a viable mainstream automotive technology.

Not to people who actually buy a Porsche…

Well, at least to some people. 911 was the best car I owned before the Model S. Once I got into the Model S, especially once AWD Ludicrous mode came, no way was I going back to a 911. I'm hoping Taycan will beat the Model S (if only Porsche would build me one already ) by combining the EV drivetrain power with Porsche driving dynamics (handling, braking, etc).

You can’t make a claim and then defend it by saying I can’t prove the opposite…

I wasn't trying to prove my point, simply stating you cannot definitively prove it either way.

And I showed Porsche had established incremental work on electrification.

Yea, you showed that they started prototyping some time before 2015. We are in complete agreement on that one. You have not however shown any proof as as to when, perhaps started in 2014? Or did I miss your definitive proof? It took 4 years from prototype to production, so it was not that close to finished in 2015. One-off prototypes can be put together quickly, especially when under pressure from a competitor.

 

[f1eng]

I followed Tesla from the early days but the only car they made that appealed to me was the original Lotus based one.
They took a conventional approach to specifying the power train, very much along the lines of that taught to students and used on trains, trams etc, based on a "realistic" predicted load rather than building for 100% load all the time.
As a result they have smaller lighter and cheaper motors which give outstanding performance for a limited time, just like trains. Almost no vehicle is used at maximum load all the time except racing cars. It was the sensible and conventional engineering choice IMO which I learned at University in the late 1960s, so nothing new.

Porsche have built a power train that can sustain 100% load as long as the battery lasts.
This is unconventional engineering but has its roots in their racing heritage.
It does mean the motors are bigger, heavier and more expensive than they would be using conventional electric power train thinking.
One could see this as a non-optimum solution for typical motorists who would neither want to nor be able to drive their at 100% between every charge, though some will certainly try!

Anyway I may be non-typical but, apart from the original roadster, Tesla has yet to make a car I would buy, the model 3 is the closest so far, but still never made a short list, whereas almost everything about the Taycan appealed to me except size.
I would have benefitted from a more conventional traction motor solution for my sort of use but otherwise the interior, ride and silence of a luxury car and the performance of an IC engined car in optimum gear ratio is compelling for me.

 

[Jhenson29]

Yep, how an EV feels was brand new territory to Porsche.

They’re cars…

You were implying Porsche had hybrids before Tesla had BEV

No. I wasn’t. Nothing about my statement regarding hybrids in 2010 referenced anything about Tesla.

By the time Mission E was unveiled in 2015, Tesla Model S sold approximately 100,000 Model S's (total).

? Yearly sales. C’mon….

No, read what I said, they started looking to make a Mission E because they saw the ever growing Model S sales. Unless of course you have some proof that Mission E was already planned prior to 2012?

Sometimes you reference the Roaster, sometimes the Model S…I guess it’s which ever one best suits your argument at that time.

And it does not follow that if I don’t have proof that the Mission E was planning before 2012, then Porsche did it because of Model S sales.

You have not however shown any proof as as to when, perhaps started in 2014? Or did I miss your definitive proof?

No, I stated quite clearly that I had no information on when they started the Mission E.

And I said incremental electrification. I’m looking at hybrids also, announced as early as 2005 IIRC from Porsche.

. . .

Is this the kind of stuff they teach you on the Tesla forums? Your claims are just much too strong, both in magnitude and degree of certainty. I can’t take them seriously. Sorry.

 

[Dee]

Are you guys STILL trying to convince each other?

If it wasn't for the invention of li-ion we wouldn't have Tesla's, cellphones, laptops etc.
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/chemistry/2019/popular-information/
If it wasn't such a climate debate we wouldn't have ANY EVs.
How far do you want to go back?
If it wasn't for the invention of the wheel?
Remember 2006 "An Inconvenient Truth"?
That was a totally different time where there wasn't such a climate discussion about CO2 like we have today (at least not as serious as back in 2006 but here we are...), let alone subsidies...
That was only 15 years ago...
Time has created EVs, it's just new insights.
Tesla was there on the right time at the right place with the right battery.
Is that enough for you Tesla fanboys?

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