Scared to ask... anyone tempted by Model S Plaid?

feye

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congrats on drinking Porsche’s marketing koolaid in one gulp - my factual and personal experience contradicts these assertions. I welcome anyone coming out to Laguna Seca and showing me their Taycan running ”flat out” for a continous 25 min session at full pace (1:45 lap times or better) - it can’t be done with current production Taycan’s - lap 6 or 7 you’ll be down on power when the battery reaches 132F and Porsche’s software throttles power down to save the battery for the 8 year/100,000 mile warranty - but you’re welcome to try…
Nice video and pics!!! :)

I don't race, so I have no experience, but based on my regular driving experience in my EVs and your report it really is all down to the battery and BMS...

I also think that the battery is the new engine and where we see the difference in brands and their cars. Exciting times ahead! :clap:
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feye

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I feel the same way about 800V vs. 400V - sure it’s better on paper…show again where the Taycan has an advantage because of it?
Wasn't the real reason for the 800V system to increase charging speed?

The Koreans are also on that train and BYD is also out with a new 800V platform (great news for me, because it could push local grid companies to up their DC chargers! :clap:)
 

daveo4EV

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but based on my regular driving experience in my EVs and your report it really is all down to the battery and BMS...
I agree with you based on my actual experience, but then I re-read the MissionR annoucement and what a big deal it is that the battery and EV motors are oil cooled…if the 800V motors were already good for ”continuous” full power use - why oil cool them?

I think there is more to the story - and no 800V alone isn’t sufficient…Porsche crafts their marketing claims very very carefully - and they don’t say things they do not mean and they don’t casually volunteer details…

the MissionR requires oil-cooling of the entire drive train to achieve 30 minutes of “full power” usage - that means the current stuff isn’t there yet…plain and simple.
 

daveo4EV

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Wasn't the real reason for the 800V system to increase charging speed?

The Koreans are also on that train and BYD is also out with a new 800V platform (great news for me, because it could push local grid companies to up their DC chargers! :clap:)
not if you re-read any of the Taycan’s marketing. but that appears year 3 into the model release cycle about the only potential semi-tangible advantage - but some pretty narrow operating enviroment requirement to actually realize that advantage - 270 kW charge rate with 800V chargers vs. 250 kW charge rate with Tesla’s 400V V3 superchargers…

I’m thinking SCSI vs. IDE, VHS vs. Betamax, and PCCB’s vs. Steels - sure there is one that is clearly “better” - but then the underdog just relentlessly and incrementally chips away at the other guys advantages until the differences are a distinction with no actual advantage…

again we’ll see how this plays out…

but please don’t tell me the Taycan is a better track car because of Porsche’s 800V drive train and their experience - because as a product it offers no more performance or stamina vs. a 400V product that is 1/3rd the price…
 
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daveo4EV

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https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/202...-drive-world-premiere-iaa-mobility-25603.html

they are marketing this like big breakthrough - no mention of the battery/bms here (see the quote below) - they are specifically highlighting the EV motors and internal cooling of the one moving part inside the motor…

clearly the current/historical Porsche 800V EV motors don’t have this advantage…
…The power output remains constant over the duration of the race, so there is no thermally induced de-rating – a major advantage of the electric motors with direct oil cooling developed by Porsche.…
and again - who’s to say oil cooling a 400V EV motor wouldn’t achieve similar results…

and again - no accidents here - Porsche chooses their messaging very very carefully and each word is painfully editted - this is their key message…it’s not an offhanded comment…it’s in the top-fold of the Press release…if it were on paper…

this means you can not have continuous non-derated performance with the current production EV motors - which means 800V alone is insufficient to avoid thermal derating for full power continuous use…

800V advantage = nil - still have thermal problems - damm - maybe if we oil cool it we can run for 30 minutes?

later in the press release we talk about oil cooling the battery - and 900V to improve charging times (15 min to 80%)

then we double down on the “new” EV motors with oil cooling with a deep dive about how Porsche in 2018 began the design of a “new EV” motor for high power continuous output…and they do their porsche thing that only they do soooo well…and talk about some very technical innovations to allow their motors to run as long and as hard as they do…

read between the lines - development starts in 2018 (well after Taycan is locked and loaded) and this is iterative improvements on their existing stuff - which means the previous stuff by deduction can’t do what this new stuff does - which is namely “run continously at full power” - Porsche has decided you need to oil cool the EV motor directly to do this - which means their previous stuff “can’t do that”.

Yes, the 800V architecture, and the motor system which can run flat out continuously comes from the Le Mans race car programme
Porsche’s MissionR press release would beg to differ with this statement as would my personal experience with their current product.
 
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JimBob

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The Taycan's battery and power train have only been around for 2 years. It takes years to really get the efficiencies up as Tesla has. I think we need to wait for Gen 2 of the Taycan to see if there are benefits.

In the meantime Lucid could be the sign of things to come. 900v architect and phenomenal power and range. A really big emphasis on efficiency at least in their presentation material. But more reviews are needed to properly say.

What Porsche did was endow the car with its traditional handling and driveability. As to battery and power train. What my third grade teacher said. "Needs improvement".

One additional point on 800v and higher. When you have really big batteries like in commercial vehicles 1200v-1600v architecture would be required otherwise you will never get them charged in a reasonable amount of time.
 

schad

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There are occasional bits of good information and discussion in this thread, if you stick with it through the other stuff!

Re: Taycan's efficiency, I would like to make a couple of points:
  1. All of the new crop of EVs have bigger battery packs than the Taycan, so of course they have better range.
  2. This is a Taycan forum. We should all know better than to compare EVs using EPA range estimates.
  3. As far as I know, only the Lucid Air has undergone anything remotely resembling real-world range testing.
  4. Efficiency contributes to range, but it is not the same thing.
In the real world, the Taycan 4S gets around 3.28 mi/kWh (275 miles / 83.7 kWh). Based on the EPA range estimates (see #2), the EQS gets about 3.15 mi/kWh (340 miles / 107.8 kWh). The Rivian R1T gets 2.36 mi/kWh (314 miles / 133 kWh). The Lucid Air gets 4.58 mi/kWh (517 miles / 113 kWh). I have to use EPA estimates because nobody has done any rigorous, semi-scientific real-world range testing of the latter three.

The Lucid Air, of course, absolutely smashes the efficiency of everything else. But aside from the Air, the Taycan is actually more efficient. The superior range of the other vehicles comes entirely from having larger battery packs (see #1).

I am very interested to see if there are any drawbacks to Lucid's extreme-efficiency approach, like poor longevity. If not, it's hard to disagree with Lucid's founder, who argues that we can get all the range we need -- with current battery tech! -- if we just focus on efficiency.

Or, perhaps we already have all the range we need, and we can reduce charge times and weight by using smaller batteries.
 

fullmetalbaal

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There are occasional bits of good information and discussion in this thread, if you stick with it through the other stuff!

Re: Taycan's efficiency, I would like to make a couple of points:
  1. All of the new crop of EVs have bigger battery packs than the Taycan, so of course they have better range.
  2. This is a Taycan forum. We should all know better than to compare EVs using EPA range estimates.
  3. As far as I know, only the Lucid Air has undergone anything remotely resembling real-world range testing.
  4. Efficiency contributes to range, but it is not the same thing.
In the real world, the Taycan 4S gets around 3.28 mi/kWh (275 miles / 83.7 kWh). Based on the EPA range estimates (see #2), the EQS gets about 3.15 mi/kWh (340 miles / 107.8 kWh). The Rivian R1T gets 2.36 mi/kWh (314 miles / 133 kWh). The Lucid Air gets 4.58 mi/kWh (517 miles / 113 kWh). I have to use EPA estimates because nobody has done any rigorous, semi-scientific real-world range testing of the latter three.

The Lucid Air, of course, absolutely smashes the efficiency of everything else. But aside from the Air, the Taycan is actually more efficient. The superior range of the other vehicles comes entirely from having larger battery packs (see #1).

I am very interested to see if there are any drawbacks to Lucid's extreme-efficiency approach, like poor longevity. If not, it's hard to disagree with Lucid's founder, who argues that we can get all the range we need -- with current battery tech! -- if we just focus on efficiency.

Or, perhaps we already have all the range we need, and we can reduce charge times and weight by using smaller batteries.
IMHO, at the end of the day, what matters is real world performance from a customer perspective, not some mile/kWh efficiency or kw charging metric. All of those of course impact real world, but the total package is what matters. So:

(1) how far you can drive with the battery at 80% (daily, or longer stops) or 100% (first leg of trip) (Taycan loses vs. EQS, Rivian, Air and Tesla)
(2) how long it takes to charge as measured in miles charged in 15-20 minutes for a stop during a longer trip (Taycan roughly on par with Air and Tesla, ahead of EQS and Rivian)
(3) how dependent you are on ideal charging infrastructure and conditions (Taycan is pretty weak here, I'd say advantage Air and Tesla)
 

Scandinavian

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1) how far you can drive with the battery at 80% (daily, or longer stops) or 100% (first leg of trip) (Taycan loses vs. EQS, Rivian, Air and Tesla)
(2) how long it takes to charge as measured in miles charged in 15-20 minutes for a stop during a longer trip (Taycan roughly on par with Air and Tesla, ahead of EQS and Rivian)
(3) how dependent you are on ideal charging infrastructure and conditions (Taycan is pretty weak here, I'd say advantage Air and Tesla)
I can agree with point no 1 if you use the car for daily driving and charge every night at home. Larger battery will be able to drive for longer.

point 2 I have no facts about Tesla other than a model 3 performance and absolutely nothing for the Air. But the Taycan beats my model 3 hands down. On a road trip with proper chargers through Germany, Ionity or BP/Aral, it charges extremealy quickly. The model3 at V3 Supercharge is nowhere near the Taycan.

Point 3 ?? Air Charging infra structure? Do they have their own? I thought they used the same as the Taycan. Tesla do have a much denser and better placed infra just now. But there are a lot of large companies like Total, BP, She’ll, Cirvle K, Fastned, Allego, Etc here in Europe building networks now.

So in driving long routes with the Taycan, you need dense and well functioning networks for charging, and they do exist here in Europe. Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium have superb coverage and reliability.

I know absolutely nothing about US, but judging from comments in this forum, there is a lot of room for improvement.
 

Windpower

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400V vs. 800V is a distinction without a difference to date in any measurable product focused way that anyone can point to in a fully realized product.
I’m not convinced the entire industry relentlessly improving 400V systems won’t overtake the advantages of an 800V system - and to date early in this little drama the 800V product really don’t seem to offer any tangible concrete consumer visible advantage vs. the 400V systems.
Since you are an engineer, you know that power (watts) = voltage x current. If you double the voltage and want to keep the power the same, you can cut the current in half. Or if you keep the current the same, you can double the power.

Which means with 800v versus 400v you can:
- use thinner wires (a lighter charging cable) from the charging stand to the car and still charge at the same rate as you would if you were using 400v
- or, with 800v, you can double the power to the car with the same current and charge twice as fast as you would if you had 400v

It seems like 800v is the way to go. That said, I don't see a lot of merit in saying 800v battery packs are inherently lighter weight than 400v packs. But an 800v battery pack can potentially give more instantaneous power than a 400v pack (once again: power = V x I). Any advantages would need to be in the engineering of the battery pack and the charger. Another advantage of 800v over 400v might also be in regenerative braking: a higher voltage would allow more power to be driven into the battery when braking.
 
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fullmetalbaal

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I can agree with point no 1 if you use the car for daily driving and charge every night at home. Larger battery will be able to drive for longer.

point 2 I have no facts about Tesla other than a model 3 performance and absolutely nothing for the Air. But the Taycan beats my model 3 hands down. On a road trip with proper chargers through Germany, Ionity or BP/Aral, it charges extremealy quickly. The model3 at V3 Supercharge is nowhere near the Taycan.

Point 3 ?? Air Charging infra structure? Do they have their own? I thought they used the same as the Taycan. Tesla do have a much denser and better placed infra just now. But there are a lot of large companies like Total, BP, She’ll, Cirvle K, Fastned, Allego, Etc here in Europe building networks now.

So in driving long routes with the Taycan, you need dense and well functioning networks for charging, and they do exist here in Europe. Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium have superb coverage and reliability.

I know absolutely nothing about US, but judging from comments in this forum, there is a lot of room for improvement.

I think the point of comparison for a new Taycan is a new Model S. They both get 150-200 miles in 15-20 min. I'd call that even. (If you take the exact values, Tesla is technically ahead, but not enough to matter). I think the Raven Model X that my wife currently drives is actually already close to parity for all intents and purposes. the ~200 that it hits and maintains for the first ~10 min are lower than the ~260 I've seen with my Taycan (yes, both lower than spec sheet), but about by the same degree that my Taycan is less efficient. So miles per minute are in the same ballpark, maybe slight advantage Taycan.

What I meant with (3), which wasn't very clear: take a normal road trip with a single stop along the way... because the Air has such crazy range, it in all likelihood only needs to top up a bit. The Taycan is betting on a fast and "deep" pull from 10-20% to something north of 70%.
Air and Taycan both use the same chargers, but on any given trip the Taycan needs to replenish many more kwh due to efficiency difference and smaller battery meaning a smaller starting level.
 

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I think we need to wait a little longer for more Lucid Air's to make it into the hands of the consumer to get a better real-world picture of how they actually perform.
 

daveo4EV

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Since you are an engineer, you know that power (watts) = voltage x current. If you double the voltage and want to keep the power the same, you can cut the current in half. Or if you keep the current the same, you can double the power.

Which means with 800v versus 400v you can:
- use thinner wires (a lighter charging cable) from the charging stand to the car and still charge at the same rate as you would if you were using 400v
- or, with 800v, you can double the power to the car with the same current and charge twice as fast as you would if you had 400v

It seems like 800v is the way to go. That said, I don't see a lot of merit in saying 800v battery packs are inherently lighter weight than 400v packs. But an 800v battery pack can potentially give more instantaneous power than a 400v pack (once again: power = V x I). Any advantages would need to be in the engineering of the battery pack and the charger. Another advantage of 800v over 400v might also be in regenerative braking: a higher voltage would allow more power to be driven into the battery when braking.
I understand all this - I’m saying so far I’m not seeing any of those theoretical advantages actually manifest themselves in any meaningful difference in the actual consumer product…and 270 kW (EA) vs. 250 kW (Supercharger V3) charging is not charging twice as fast… all indications is this shows up as a 3 to 4 min difference across a 30 min charging session - hardly twice as fast.

we’ll see what pans out - but 800V system in Taycan isn’t really yielding any measurable advantages vs. 400V products…please point to an actual advantage Taycan has vs. say the 400V Model 3 or VW’s own 400V based eTron SUV for example.

what concrete advantage does the Taycan hold over the competition that one can actually point to and measure because it’s 800V? And how does the customer benefit?

so far all I’ve seen is marketing and in theory what could be better, but in actual practice - zip, nadda, zlinch actual benefits that I can realize as a consumer.
 

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The Taycan's battery and power train have only been around for 2 years. It takes years to really get the efficiencies up as Tesla has. I think we need to wait for Gen 2 of the Taycan to see if there are benefits.

In the meantime Lucid could be the sign of things to come. 900v architect and phenomenal power and range. A really big emphasis on efficiency at least in their presentation material. But more reviews are needed to properly say.

What Porsche did was endow the car with its traditional handling and driveability. As to battery and power train. What my third grade teacher said. "Needs improvement".

One additional point on 800v and higher. When you have really big batteries like in commercial vehicles 1200v-1600v architecture would be required otherwise you will never get them charged in a reasonable amount of time.
This.

Lucid has flat out stated that their motor size is directly related to the 900v architecture they are using. Remember, higher voltage means lower current which means less wire heating which means smaller wires...the virtuous cycle. I would posit that Porsche is on Gen 1 of their powertrains. When the Taycan first came out, @daveo4EV and I (in an offline conversation) were absolutely flabbergasted about the weight of the vehicle and especially some very poor packaging / design choices. As Dave is wont to say, too much legacy automaker in their thinking / parts supply chain. When you look at the Taycan's layout, it's not as bad as the Mach E's cooling system (google the Sandy Munro video on it if you want to see a real freak show of having to adapt legacy parts), but there are clearly a LOT of wasted space, parts, etc. The packaging is nowhwere near what Tesla is doing, and now Lucid is as well. Clean sheet design and no legacy contracts does have some advantages.

This is an EXCELLENT video discussing Lucid's design ethos and where they find their efficiencies:



I predict that Porsche's next BEV's (which, tellingly, are NOT on the Taycan's platform - it's a one and one) namely the Macan, will be a step change on in terms of packaging and, more importantly, gaining more benefits of the 800v architecture beyond charging speed.

Remember, Tesla's been doing this for 9 years now. And they approach it with a completely different mindset. Any legacy manufacturer producing EV's is 1) still catching up and 2) still bound to using suppliers / parts / design ethos from ICE vehicles.
 
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