Tesla fires entire Supercharger team. Elon Musk says Supercharger growth will continue however

[Scandinavian]

The T junk charging network in Europe is badly underutilised. Even after opening up, charging stations are empty, other high-powered charging stations next to it are busy with queues. There is no plug/socket compatibility issue:

1. Cannot make payment with charging cards or credit cards.
2. Cannot plug in the cable because why too heavy and way too short.

I do not know on what planet you reside, but clearly not in Europe, Planet Earth!

The Tesla SUC in most parts of France, Germany, Denmark, UK, Sweden, Norway that I have passed or visited have ben fairly busy. Their charging stations are far more reliable than others and their pricing has now also become very competitive. Especially since Porsche Charging increased their pricing to 0.39 Euro per kilowatt with a 25 Euro per month subscription. Against Tesla in France that costs 9.99 Euro per month and charging rates are 0.37 Euro per kWh in peak hours!

Payment by app very similar to Porsche charging so that is not a problem. I have not looked for any Tesla charger with credit card payment. And I would anyhow just use Apple Pay so I need the phone anyway.

Yes I agree there are a number of older chargers that have a very short cable, but many recent builds have changed that to have them sideways and very easy to reach.


OOh and by the way the Tesla Supercharger CCS2 here on Planet Earth is way smaller and lighter than the Ionity CCS2 plug !

Now if only Porsche had had the foresight to install a charging system in their car that would not limit charging at 400 volt to either 50 kW or 150kW!

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[whitex]

I do not know on what planet you reside, but clearly not in Europe, Planet Earth!

I think the hint was in the "T junk" term used throughout the post you were replying to. Perhaps the T is for Troll planet?

The Tesla SUC in most parts of France, Germany, Denmark, UK, Sweden, Norway that I have passed or visited have ben fairly busy. Their charging stations are far more reliable than others and their pricing has now also become very competitive.

In the US some chargers are really busy, others, outside of major cities can be less busy except during holiday travels. That said, I've met Teslas charging at Electrify America in the same parking lots as Tesla superchargers, because Tesla prices were allegedly higher (I drove Teslas for a decade, but early adopters had free unlimited charging so I never paid attention to SC prices). However, I somehow don't see even those people waiting in queues for EA if superchargers in the same parking lot were open. The biggest advantage Tesla has in the US is station uptime and deployment penetration. I hope with the recent firing of the supercharger team, Tesla will just open their network to all CCS1 cars with an adapter and a Tesla account -it would be easier for them, require less staff for onboarding individual manufacturers. That, and it would not require changes from Porsche which I somehow doubt are ever coming for Gen1 Taycans.

 

[Perry]

I think the hint was in the "T junk" term used throughout the post you were replying to. Perhaps the T is for Troll planet?


In the US some chargers are really busy, others, outside of major cities can be less busy except during holiday travels. That said, I've met Teslas charging at Electrify America in the same parking lots as Tesla superchargers, because Tesla prices were allegedly higher (I drove Teslas for a decade, but early adopters had free unlimited charging so I never paid attention to SC prices). However, I somehow don't see even those people waiting in queues for EA if superchargers in the same parking lot were open. The biggest advantage Tesla has in the US is station uptime and deployment penetration. I hope with the recent firing of the supercharger team, Tesla will just open their network to all CCS1 cars with an adapter and a Tesla account -it would be easier for them, require less staff for onboarding individual manufacturers. That, and it would not require changes from Porsche which I somehow doubt are ever coming for Gen1 Taycans.

Do they actually require any hw/sw changes to the cars? I’ve always assumed that they just keep a whitelist of MAC addresses. Didn’t Ford just send out a dumb pass-through adapter to their existing customers without any other changes?

 

[whitex]

Do they actually require any hw/sw changes to the cars? I’ve always assumed that they just keep a whitelist of MAC addresses. Didn’t Ford just send out a dumb pass-through adapter to their existing customers without any other changes?

Both Ford and Rivian required car firmware upgrade to make the adapter work with Tesla. Ford E-Transit was delayed because it requires a dealer installed update before being allowed access to the superchargers. Given that 2020 Taycan charger firmware could not be updated to enable Plug-And-Charge (you had to get a whole new charger - thousands of dollars in retrofit labor), I'm thinking Taycan Gen1 just doesn't have software upgradable charging protocol, which could explain why Porsche dragging their feet - in order to enable supercharger access for existing Porsches, they need 2025 or newer models on the road (or they could not be called pre-existing). Tesla could simply allow any CCS1 car with in-app authorization, but hasn't been the case (except for Magic Dock superchargers).

 

[Perry]

Both Ford and Rivian required car firmware upgrade to make the adapter work with Tesla. Ford E-Transit was delayed because it requires a dealer installed update before being allowed access to the superchargers. Given that 2020 Taycan charger firmware could not be updated to enable Plug-And-Charge (you had to get a whole new charger - thousands of dollars in retrofit labor), I'm thinking Taycan Gen1 just doesn't have software upgradable charging protocol, which could explain why Porsche dragging their feet - in order to enable supercharger access for existing Porsches, they need 2025 or newer models on the road (or they could not be called pre-existing). Tesla could simply allow any CCS1 car with in-app authorization, but hasn't been the case (except for Magic Dock superchargers).

Are you entirely sure about that? IIRC, in Ford's case, the update merely enabled Plug&Charge-like support for Superchargers, updated navigation and other interface changes to integrate better with the network.

The cars could still charge at the Superchargers without the update, according to what people were saying at the time, if you initiated the session with the app (and can make the plug physically fit with an adapter, of course).

 

[whitex]

The cars could still charge at the Superchargers without the update, according to what people were saying at the time, if you initiated the session with the app (and can make the plug physically fit with an adapter, of course).

Ford E-Transport still can't charge at Tesla superchargers AFAIK since the dealer upgrade is not yet available. Kyle on YouTube got early access, but his adapter didn't work until his Rivian got the update.

 

[Perry]

Ford E-Transport still can't charge at Tesla superchargers AFAIK since the dealer upgrade is not yet available. Kyle on YouTube got early access, but his adapter didn't work until his Rivian got the update.

However, Ford explicitly says on their website that an update is not needed, but only recommended for better integration:

Is a Software Update required to use Tesla Superchargers?

While updates are not required, software updates will enhance the experience at Tesla Superchargers. We recommend that you enable automatic updates to receive software updates and take advantage of these enhancements.
Note: E-Transit customers will need to contact their Ford Dealer to receive these updates.

https://www.ford.com/support/how-to...ng/how-do-i-get-a-fast-charging-adapter-nacs/

It does however seem like Tesla actually uses P&C for third party Supercharger access, which is probably the reason why the E-transit doesn't work.

 

[whitex]

However, Ford explicitly says on their website that an update is not needed, but only recommended for better integration:



https://www.ford.com/support/how-to...ng/how-do-i-get-a-fast-charging-adapter-nacs/

It does however seem like Tesla actually uses P&C for third party Supercharger access, which is probably the reason why the E-transit doesn't work.

Can you turn off PnC on a Taycan and pretend it's a Ford without a software update?

 

[Tooney]

What’s happening at Tesla? Here’s what experts think. Arstechnia article

"Opening the Supercharger network will definitely add to Tesla's top-line revenue," said Sam Abuelsamid, principal analyst of transportation and mobility at Guidehouse Insights. "Whether it is profitable revenue is hard to say for sure; the prices they charge aren't cheap and can be upward of $0.50/kWh ,so presumably, they are at least breaking even, if not profitable, on variable cost of electricity."

More than just a profit line, "there is another crucial reason for opening the Supercharger network, NEVI," said Abuelsamid, referring to the $5 billion for high-speed EV charging allocated by the Biden administration. "Tesla has always thrived on subsidies. To be eligible for NEVI funding that pays for much of the cost of installing DC fast charging, the chargers must be open to all users, not just a specific brand. That’s exactly why Rivian is opening up its adventure charging," Abuelsamid told me.

There's a chance that scaling back on charging won't hurt Tesla that much. "EV charging in the US remains a growth field, but with the rest of the industry pivoting to Tesla's own charging standard, why does Tesla’s charging team need to be so big, or even exist?" Jominy asked. "I'm not positive of the reciprocity agreements in adopting NACS, but if you're an automaker like Rivian with its own fledging charging network that has gained access to the Supercharger network, your owners now have more high-speed charging access than Tesla owners. How does Tesla win by continuing to play in that game?

"Charging is a massive capital investment. From here, future investments are about filling in white space on the charging map," Jominy said. "It's like most major cities have an Ikea. Does it take a massive team to determine what cities next need one or if a large city needs a second? Those are innocuous decisions relative to the crucial ones during the initial rollout strategy. Each incremental investment in Superchargers from here produces marginal gains at best, and where to place future bets becomes increasingly obvious by looking at a map or owner statistics."

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

What’s happening at Tesla? Here’s what experts think. Arstechnia article

"Opening the Supercharger network will definitely add to Tesla's top-line revenue," said Sam Abuelsamid, principal analyst of transportation and mobility at Guidehouse Insights. "Whether it is profitable revenue is hard to say for sure; the prices they charge aren't cheap and can be upward of $0.50/kWh ,so presumably, they are at least breaking even, if not profitable, on variable cost of electricity."

More than just a profit line, "there is another crucial reason for opening the Supercharger network, NEVI," said Abuelsamid, referring to the $5 billion for high-speed EV charging allocated by the Biden administration. "Tesla has always thrived on subsidies. To be eligible for NEVI funding that pays for much of the cost of installing DC fast charging, the chargers must be open to all users, not just a specific brand. That’s exactly why Rivian is opening up its adventure charging," Abuelsamid told me.

There's a chance that scaling back on charging won't hurt Tesla that much. "EV charging in the US remains a growth field, but with the rest of the industry pivoting to Tesla's own charging standard, why does Tesla’s charging team need to be so big, or even exist?" Jominy asked. "I'm not positive of the reciprocity agreements in adopting NACS, but if you're an automaker like Rivian with its own fledging charging network that has gained access to the Supercharger network, your owners now have more high-speed charging access than Tesla owners. How does Tesla win by continuing to play in that game?

"Charging is a massive capital investment. From here, future investments are about filling in white space on the charging map," Jominy said. "It's like most major cities have an Ikea. Does it take a massive team to determine what cities next need one or if a large city needs a second? Those are innocuous decisions relative to the crucial ones during the initial rollout strategy. Each incremental investment in Superchargers from here produces marginal gains at best, and where to place future bets becomes increasingly obvious by looking at a map or owner statistics."

I’m neither in the “Musk is a business genius, you plebs don’t even see the third dimension of his chess playing” camp, nor in the “this is the worst decision ev4h” one. However, i am skeptical that they only fired planning people, or that operations are fully automated by now. It was no doubt a larger cut than perhaps would have been wise, but his similar approach to Twitter staff did not, contrary to unanimous expectations, lead to the demise of that platform. The letter shared earlier was written by a fairly junior person, who will now grow into the vacuum created by the firings very quickly indeed (or at least will have the opportunity to). People adapt, and there’s *always* someone who will do whatever the mad king ask for.

 

[Tooney]

Tesla’s first big Supercharger deal is a $100 million sale to BP October, 2023
The oil and gas company’s EV charging arm will be the first independent network with its own Superchargers.

 

[Jonathan S.]

re "Whether it is profitable revenue is hard to say for sure; the prices they charge aren't cheap and can be upward of $0.50/kWh ,so presumably, they are at least breaking even, if not profitable, on variable cost of electricity."
... I'm surprised that Magic Dock pricing spans a relatively small range.
Granted, my research is based upon a limited sample size, but:

• Enfield CT = $0.51/kWh, always almost deserted based on the app and on personal experience
• Brewster NY = $0.53/kWh, always almost deserted based on the app and on personal experience
• Yonkers NY = $0.54 to $0.63 depending on time of day, always (at least when I'm awake) nearly full or entirely full with a wait based on the app (and no way am I ever going to try it in person based on the foregoing)

So why isn't Yonkers even more expensive than that?
Plus how about a time-based component to reflect the opportunity cost to the network (both owner/operator and drivers) of a slow-charging EV (whether slow no matter what, or at a high SoC)?
For an optimally sited stations with fast chargers that are well-maintained such as Yonkers, ~$1/kWh might be the income-maximizing pricing strategy.
But I don't see much experimentation with that (by TSCN or any other network), as the FB complaints are about merely mid to high single-digits for cents/kWh.
By contrast, I know that Amazon has large teams of my fellow economists constantly analyzing consumer response to pricing strategy. If you're a newly minted PhD with a focus on price theory, great job opportunities there. (Unless you aspire to something more in life than deriving the optimal pricing strategy for consumer goods via assessing how people respond to a one-cent increase in a popular brand of toilet paper.)

 

[kort]

I’m neither in the “Musk is a business genius, you plebs don’t even see the third dimension of his chess playing” camp, nor in the “this is the worst decision ev4h” one. However, i am skeptical that they only fired planning people, or that operations are fully automated by now. It was no doubt a larger cut than perhaps would have been wise, but his similar approach to Twitter staff did not, contrary to unanimous expectations, lead to the demise of that platform. The letter shared earlier was written by a fairly junior person, who will now grow into the vacuum created by the firings very quickly indeed (or at least will have the opportunity to). People adapt, and there’s *always* someone who will do whatever the mad king ask for.

agreed, X [twitter] is getting on just fine despite Elon's tweaking the size of the staff.

 

[kort]

re "Whether it is profitable revenue is hard to say for sure; the prices they charge aren't cheap and can be upward of $0.50/kWh ,so presumably, they are at least breaking even, if not profitable, on variable cost of electricity."
... I'm surprised that Magic Dock pricing spans a relatively small range.
Granted, my research is based upon a limited sample size, but:

• Enfield CT = $0.51/kWh, always almost deserted based on the app and on personal experience
• Brewster NY = $0.53/kWh, always almost deserted based on the app and on personal experience
• Yonkers NY = $0.54 to $0.63 depending on time of day, always (at least when I'm awake) nearly full or entirely full with a wait based on the app (and no way am I ever going to try it in person based on the foregoing)

So why isn't Yonkers even more expensive than that?
Plus how about a time-based component to reflect the opportunity cost to the network (both owner/operator and drivers) of a slow-charging EV (whether slow no matter what, or at a high SoC)?
For an optimally sited stations with fast chargers that are well-maintained such as Yonkers, ~$1/kWh might be the income-maximizing pricing strategy.
But I don't see much experimentation with that (by TSCN or any other network), as the FB complaints are about merely mid to high single-digits for cents/kWh.
By contrast, I know that Amazon has large teams of my fellow economists constantly analyzing consumer response to pricing strategy. If you're a newly minted PhD with a focus on price theory, great job opportunities there. (Unless you aspire to something more in life than deriving the optimal pricing strategy for consumer goods via assessing how people respond to a one-cent increase in a popular brand of toilet paper.)

as an economist your omitting the upfront costs of installing a charger is alarming. the costs associated with building out a L3 charging station is quite high.
kwh charges apparently are not based on or include the upfront costs.

 

[Jonathan S.]

as an economist your omitting the upfront costs of installing a charger is alarming. the costs associated with building out a L3 charging station is quite high.
kwh charges apparently are not based on or include the upfront costs.

I am well aware of such costs for the owner/operator.
Which is exactly why I have in other posts elsewhere pointed out that the spread between DCFC per/kWh prices vs wholesale kWh prices is not a meaningful indicator of profitability (even if demand chargers are included).

But once a DCFC station is up and running, those upfront costs are sunk and irrelevant to the optimum pricing strategy (even though those upfront costs are certainly relevant to an analysis of whether or not the station ends up being profitable over the span of its entire operational history).

The point of my post to which you were responding is that Magic Dock pricing does not seem to vary sufficiently by location or time of day so as to reflect the range in demand for charging.

So if Yonkers is always packed during waking hours at the current pricing structure, then just, say, double the prices during those hours!

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