GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design)

[whitex]

@daveo4EV, once Ford comes out with the NACS adapter, are you willing to try to plug it into your Taycan and try the Ford app? If the standard doesn't need alterations, it should just work, no? W

I'm a huge fan of "the idea" of Rivian - but in watching them "execute" I've gone from "fan" to OMG these guys are doomed but I'm still rooting for you - in the same way you root "for your team"" but know they have no chance at winning this season…I'm rooting for them, but believe they are on the road to failure/being bought out.

With all these rooting and doomed mentions, at first glance I read that you were considering rooting the car as a requirement to buy it, so that you can maintain it after they fail.

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[daveo4EV]

With all these rooting and doomed mentions, at first glance I read that you were considering rooting the car as a requirement to buy it, so that you can maintain it after they fail.

@daveo4EV, once Ford comes out with the NACS adapter, are you willing to try to plug it into your Taycan and try the Ford app? If the standard doesn't need alterations, it should just work, no? W

With all these rooting and doomed mentions, at first glance I read that you were considering rooting the car as a requirement to buy it, so that you can maintain it after they fail.

yeah it should work - but they may software limit it…to not "activate" a CCS session for a non-Ford unless it's a magic dock equipped supercharger…

we already know the adatper works with my Taycan at Scott's valley.

 

[whitex]

yeah it should work - but they may software limit it…to not "activate" a CCS session for a non-Ford unless it's a magic dock equipped supercharger…

How will the supercharger know it's not a Ford if it doesn't add anything to current CCS spec? Do all Fords support plug-and-charge?

 

[daveo4EV]

How will the supercharger know it's not a Ford if it doesn't add anything to current CCS spec? Do all Fords support plug-and-charge?

App based activation - and CCS already includes a "vendor ID" "enough basic info" - I got a note from a Taycan owner that he's getting charged by EA when using his Porsche account to charge his Model Y via the
Tesla CCS adapter...so we know EA knows it's talking to a Tesla vehicle even when using the Porsche app to activate the session.

@outie will confirm he's being charged for charging his Tesla w/Porsche app when using a CCS adatper at EA - so CCS has enough information even without plug&charge support to distinguish vehicle manufacturer

CCS has enough info with or without plug&charge support to know what kind of car it's talking to.

Tesla/Ford/GM _COULD_ filter to not allow session to activated at a supercharger for "other brands"…it will all depend on the cost model - on the one hand they may not care if they are being "reimbursed" for the session - but on the other hand they might car if they are paying for the session as part of a 3 year's included type of deal...

also they have not said _ANYTHING_ about supporting plug&charge at Tesla Superchargers for CCS "native" vehicle's - my predication is it will remain app based activation for native CCS1 vehicle's…

1. park at supercharger station
2. get adapter from vehicle
3. plug adapter into the NACS connector on the supercharger stall
4. plug into vehicle
5. at this point handshaking will occur but session will NOT start automatically
   1. NOTE: at this point in Time the Supercharger and Vehicle have already "negotiated" a CCS session and the supercharger "knows" basic info about the vehicle
6. launch Ford app - navigate to "activate supercharger" what ever...
7. hit start button in the Ford app
   1. message is sent to Ford Servers - forwarded to Tesla Servers
   2. Tesla servers then instruct the supercharger stall "start" the "flow" and charge the car
   3. account billing is established based on your FordPass account

* - anywhere in steps 5-7 the session start command could be rejected because it's "not a ford" currently plugged in - again this will be policy based - not technically based.

I do not foresee "plug&charge" w/Supercharger support until there are Native NACS vehicle's - and then the question will be:

• Does Tesla "add" CCS native plug&charge support to their superchargers?
• do NACS "adopters" add native Supercharger plug&charge support to their vehicle's

that question is a toss up in my opinion.

 

[satchurator]

How will the supercharger know it's not a Ford if it doesn't add anything to current CCS spec? Do all Fords support plug-and-charge?

MAC address over PLC, or Tesla goes further to implement PnC and then does it by provisioned certificates arranged between them and each negotiated participating manufacturer.

And to anyone who says "Yeah but MAC addresses can be faked" I'd suggest that's it's very difficult for most mortals in this particular medium.

 

[whitex]

MAC address over PLC, or Tesla goes further to implement PnC and then does it by provisioned certificates arranged between them and each negotiated participating manufacturer.

And to anyone who says "Yeah but MAC addresses can be faked" I'd suggest that's it's very difficult for most mortals in this particular medium.

MAC address will likely tell you the manufacturer of the onboard charger, not the car. For example, both Audi and Porsche use the same onboard charger, I suspect VW uses the same manufacturer too (some company in Ireland IIRC).

 

[Scandinavian]

MAC address over PLC, or Tesla goes further to implement PnC and then does it by provisioned certificates arranged between them and each negotiated participating manufacturer.

And to anyone who says "Yeah but MAC addresses can be faked" I'd suggest that's it's very difficult for most mortals in this particular medium.

I believe this is how Fastned have implemented their Plug and Charge here in Europe. Works great with the Taycan

 

[daveo4EV]

the point is for a CCS session there is more than sufficient info/meta-data that a charging site/stall/EVSE can "filter" for the purposes of authorization/restrictions already in the PLC/DIN/ISO/CCS protocols during the handshake phase of a charging session…and then above and beyond that you have plug&charge information in the charging sessions if both ends support it and choose to use it…

• - also "extending" the CCS session to have some extra info specifically "for" Tesla supercharger's is not out of question as a software update with minor revision to the existing CCS support in these vehicle's to "better support" CCS at a Tesla supercharging session - extending the CCS session handshake with extra info is well with in scope with out abandoning CCS entirely or forcing adoption of the Native Supercharger protocol.

as to _IF_ Tesla/Ford/GM/Others _WILL_ use this information for any purpose (plug&charge for example) that remains to be seen - or deny charging to "non-Ford/GM" vehicle's - but again there is no need to "extend" the CCS protocol - and it's perfectly viable to simply plug the vehicle in via adatper - negotiate a CCS session - and then wait for command from "the mothership" to actually activate the charging session - which is no different than how EA works today with my 2020 Taycan Turbo, or works with my 2020 Taycan Turbo at a MagicDock charging site.

plug in, negotiate CCS, wait for "start" command to come from the charging vendor's servers…

FACT: at the moment I can (and have) charged my son's 2022 & daughter's 2023 Tesla Model Y and friends 2021 Audi eTron SUV, at the Aptos, CA EA charging site - I also can use the Porsche app to start the charging session - and so far I have not be billed for any of these sessions - but there are reports of other's being billing after the fact and EA reports the vehicle type in the "billing update"…

any restrictions on these type of mix/match charging would be "policy/authorization" based - not CCS incompatibility based…

nothing prevents EA stations from just beginning a charge when any CCS vehicle is plugged in (adapter or otherwise) and they often do "just start" charging when they are having various communication problems at a given site and they enable "free" charging so no one is left unable to start a charging session…

any CCS vehicle can charge at an EA that does not require authorization…which happens from time to time
the same thing could happen at a supercharger for CCS vehicle's - but to date there has never been a report that session's started without billing because of communication problems - but nothing prevents it other than to date all supercharger session's require authorization (either offline or online depending on the circumstance).

 

[tigerbalm]

I believe this is how Fastned have implemented their Plug and Charge here in Europe. Works great with the Taycan

It is and its why some car's can't use this method because bizarrely some manufactures have set all their car's to have the same MAC address.

 

[whitex]

It is and its why some car's can't use this method because bizarrely some manufactures have set all their car's to have the same MAC address.

Why am I not surprised?

 

[daveo4EV]

CHARGERS AND PORTS DESIGNED BY COMMITTEES GENERALLY SUCK, EV EDITION ★
Fred Lambert, writing for Electrek:

CharIn, the association behind the CCS EV charging standard, has issued a response to the Tesla and Ford partnership on the NACS charging standard. [...] Last month, Ford announced that it will integrate NACS, Tesla’s charge connector that it open-sourced last year in an attempt to make it the North American charging standard, into its future electric vehicles.
Obviously, CharIn is trying to defend itself and survive here, but I don’t think it is necessarily fighting fair.
When it comes to the charge connector itself, there’s no doubt that they lost the battle. It is almost comical how bad the design of the CCS connector is compared to Tesla’s.

The CCS charger is big fat and ugly, and has reliability problems. Tesla’s NACS charger is smaller, more reliable, and more elegant. The CCS charger is the EV equivalent of pre-USB-C USB ports. NACS is like Lightning. Rivian and GM are now on board with NACS too.
The best way to get a good standard port is to let proprietary designs fight it out in the market, and let the winner be the de facto standard.

 

[gnop1950]

it must have KILLED both Ford and GM to negotiate with Tesla on this front…absolutely killed them…

this tells me more about EA and CCS than we will ever know

the fact that they are making this change - says that ChargePoint/EA/Other's SUCK, and will continue to suck and will impact EV's negatively

this change is not being done lightly - and speaks VOLUMES about how bad CCS probably really is behind the scenes…cause these vendors do not up end their supply chain and negotiate with competitors if they think their current approach can work…

CCS is doomed, and now industry insiders are subtly admitting that - otherwise these announcements would not be happening…

think about it - they know more than we know, suffer the same thing, have access to inside information, and work directly with EA and others…and they've given up and negotiated with the mad-man in Texas/California who's outselling their cars across the board…

what do they know that we don't? and why did that knowledge drive them this direction?

read the room - it wasn't ever going to work - have to do something different - pivot to the stuff that works.

You might find this an interesting read. Tesla has actually adopted the CCS communications protocol standard for NACS so, to my mind, this is pretty much a tempest in a teacup so to speak ;-) CCS vs NACS

 

[whitex]

CHARGERS AND PORTS DESIGNED BY COMMITTEES GENERALLY SUCK, EV EDITION ★
Fred Lambert, writing for Electrek:

The CCS charger is big fat and ugly, and has reliability problems. Tesla’s NACS charger is smaller, more reliable, and more elegant. The CCS charger is the EV equivalent of pre-USB-C USB ports. NACS is like Lightning. Rivian and GM are now on board with NACS too.
The best way to get a good standard port is to let proprietary designs fight it out in the market, and let the winner be the de facto standard.

I find it interesting that in all comparisons between CCS and NACS, nobody mentioned the button which opens the charge port. It’s a good example of how Tesla has thought of even the minor things, a more complete design if you will.
PS) technically that button is a moving part, but a)it’s not a mechanical latch, and b)it is not absolutely required to work in order to charge, it’s just a convenience thing (since you can open Tesla ports by pressing on the door/cover, from the app, or from inside the car).

 

[daveo4EV]

You might find this an interesting read. Tesla has actually adopted the CCS communications protocol standard for NACS so, to my mind, this is pretty much a tempest in a teacup so to speak ;-) CCS vs NACS

running CCS over NACS has been my assertion for this entire thread - that's great confirmation of my theory.

 

[DerekS]

running CCS over NACS has been my assertion for this entire thread - that's great confirmation of my theory.

Given CCS over NACS, does that change your assessment of the port swap viability?

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