Will my Taycan pre-heat the battery based on "A Better Routeplanner" charging stops?

[pio]

If I remember correclty, when navigating on any iPhone app, as soon as you show this app in Apple Carplay, the car gets notified that some type of navigation app is active in Apple Car Play. This then stops the in-car navigation and I can see the logic in that.

However, when using A Better Routeplanner (ABRP) to plan charging stops, it would be nice if my Taycan would also pre-heat the battery based on the planned charging stops in ABRP. Is this possible?

Last time I tried this did not happen. I now see significant updates in the ABRP app, many of which have to do with better integration with Apple Carplay. Does anyone have experience how to deal with pre-heating & using this latest iteration of ABRP?

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[Tooney]

For battery pre-heating to occur, a charging site recognized as a charging site has to be entered as the destination in the PCM nav system.

 

[pio]

For battery pre-heating to occur, a charging site recognized as a charging site has to be entered as the destination in the PCM nav system.

Yes, and that is where the problem lies. The built-in navigation stops automatically if you show ABRP (while navigating) via Apple Car Play.

 

[daveo4EV]

in this case vehicle manufacturers would need to work with CarPlay/AndroidAuto to "add" this concept (battery pre-heating) to the CarPlay/AA suite of capabilities - there is no such concept available to carplay/aa apps at this time - it's feasible but would need co-operation of VW/Audi/Porsche

I use ABRP simply for planning purposes and then the vehicle's navigation while on road trips for the battery integration.

 

[n3ophyte]

All other things being equal, how much time do you actually save when charging an “optimally pre-heated“ battery from 20 to 80% versus a battery that’s simply “warm” from being used?

I also wonder how long it takes a battery to go from “warm” to “optimal” charging temperature via charging alone ?

 

[daveo4EV]

All other things being equal, how much time do you actually save when charging an “optimally pre-heated“ battery from 20 to 80% versus a battery that’s simply “warm” from being used?

I also wonder how long it takes a battery to go from “warm” to “optimal” charging temperature via charging alone ?

the answer is "enough to matter"…also it's bragging rights - you're never going to get that dopamine "hit" of happiness at hitting 320 kW max charge rate unless the battery temp is where it needs to be right when you plug in…and by the time the battery is "warm" enough from the charging you're now "out of the window" SOC wise for maximum charge rate…

the time savings is 8-12 minutes on your total session time - but the charging curve is severely handicapped if the battery is not at the right temperature

also if your battery is really really cold there is a negative feedback loop - if the battery is super cold you can't charge at a very high rate (potentially less than 70 kW) - at that slow of a charge rate there is not a lot of heat being generated from the charge session - so the battery remains cold and does not heat up very fast - leaving you at the slower rate for longer - the colder the battery the slower the charge rate, the slower the charge rate the less the battery will heat up - leading to a potentialy very very long charging session…(50-70 kW charging session can be 90 minutes or more vs. 30 minutes or less for a 150 kW or more charging session).

you reach about 50% battery SOC in 10 min or less if you're getting 125 kW or more when you plug in - and by 50% SOC you can not longer pump in FastDC electrons at "max rate" the battery has already started to taper and max charge rate is no longer "on the table"

so you're only opportunity to achieve max charge rate for your (270 kW for J1 or 320 kW for J1.2) Taycan is below 30% battery SOC at with he battery already at the "right" temperature…with in 5-10 minutes at 125 kW or more you're already past 50% SOC…on battery level

also if it's really really cold out and your battery is sub 60F charge rate could be very very slow (less than 100 kW) because battery temps are not where they need to be…

so it can make a big difference…in terms of overall session time and personal angst watching your battery charge at 162 kW instead of 268/320 kW…

this video also demonstrates the actual charging speed difference between two identical ID.4's - one with a warm battery and one with a cold battery but same SOC

https://www.macanevowners.com/forum/threads/electrify-america-max-charge-rate.18294/#post-276169

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...my-taycan-charge-as-fast-as-i-want-it-to.779/

 

[daveo4EV]

the answer is "enough to matter"…also it's bragging rights - you're never going to get that dopamine "hit" of happiness at hitting 320 kW max charge rate unless the battery temp is where it needs to be right when you plug in…and by the time the battery is "warm" enough from the charging you're now "out of the window" SOC wise for maximum charge rate…

the time savings is 8-12 minutes on your total session time - but the charging curve is severely handicapped if the battery is not at the right temperature

also if your battery is really really cold there is a negative feedback loop - if the battery is super cold you can't charge at a very high rate (potentially less than 70 kW) - at that slow of a charge rate there is not a lot of heat being generated from the charge session - so the battery remains cold and does not heat up very fast - leaving you at the slower rate for longer - the colder the battery the slower the charge rate, the slower the charge rate the less the battery will heat up - leading to a potentialy very very long charging session…(50-70 kW charging session can be 90 minutes or more vs. 30 minutes or less for a 150 kW or more charging session).

you reach about 50% battery SOC in 10 min or less if you're getting 125 kW or more when you plug in - and by 50% SOC you can not longer pump in FastDC electrons at "max rate" the battery has already started to taper and max charge rate is no longer "on the table"

so you're only opportunity to achieve max charge rate for your (270 kW for J1 or 320 kW for J1.2) Taycan is below 30% battery SOC at with he battery already at the "right" temperature…with in 5-10 minutes at 125 kW or more you're already past 50% SOC…on battery level

also if it's really really cold out and your battery is sub 60F charge rate could be very very slow (less than 100 kW) because battery temps are not where they need to be…

so it can make a big difference…in terms of overall session time and personal angst watching your battery charge at 162 kW instead of 268/320 kW…

this video also demonstrates the actual charging speed difference between two identical ID.4's - one with a warm battery and one with a cold battery but same SOC

https://www.macanevowners.com/forum/threads/electrify-america-max-charge-rate.18294/#post-276169

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...my-taycan-charge-as-fast-as-i-want-it-to.779/

I've been giving this post some more thought driving around the Macan EV this morning

basically the 'fastest' charge rate is a perishable commodity - there are only certain conditions under which it will flourish - and the minute you plug in the clock is ticking and working against the 'fastest charge rate' - if the car/battery is not ready at the moment you plug in - the fast charge rate will not bloom and you'll lose the opportunity for that entire charging session…so it's best to have everything "ready" so the car/battery can maximize the charge rate - because if it's not ready - you'll lose it - and you'l have to wait for the next charge cycle to try again…

and it turns out it's fairly hard to burn through 90 kWh's of power - I've been trying for weeks to get to my local magic dock supercharger with the Macan below 20% (ideally 15% or less) - but it's hard to burn that much power in normal use - I mean I could out and out waste it - but it still takes 2-4 hours of driving to get down that much power…

fast charging is a perishable commodity and conditions need to be right to achieve it - otherwise you have to wait for the "next time" to try again - this is why pre-conditioning is sooo important.

in 30 minutes of 125 kw or more - you have like 10-12 minutes of available fast charging and only at the beginning of the session - not at the "end" - because by the end the battery is too full…

 

[n3ophyte]

Solid answer ^^^^


Thanks for that Dave

 

[pio]

I will give it a try, not doing any pre-conditioning.

When we set the car to charge at reduced speed (200 kW), the charging usually takes 18-22 minutes instead of 12-18 minutes. It also means we don't need to rush our cup of tea, and we don't feel like we are in some kind of race. Let's see what happens if we don't pre-condition, I will certainly try this.

PS - regarding the "bonus" time you can achieve, this can also be negative, especially if the car believes it is going to get 250 kW from a Tesla charger, which is never going to happen, and which means it will happily spent about 3%-4% SoC on just the heating.

 

[hifi239]

at that slow of a charge rate there is not a lot of heat being generated from the charge session - so the battery remains cold and does not heat up very fast - leaving you at the slower rate for longer

I thought that plugging in when the battery is below the ideal temperature causes the PTC to heat the battery while charging. It isn't just the heat from current flowing into the battery. Or am I wrong. My battery temp behaves like it is on PTC preheat when I plug in cold (below 85F).

 

[daveo4EV]

I thought that plugging in when the battery is below the ideal temperature causes the PTC to heat the battery while charging. It isn't just the heat from current flowing into the battery. Or am I wrong. My battery temp behaves like it is on PTC preheat when I plug in cold (below 85F).

it may or may not - I don't honestly know and doubt anyone outside of Porsche engineering knows for sure - what I do know is that the battery is pretty big thermal mass - and it takes time to change the ambient temperature of a large thermal mass - and time is one thing you don't have when you're fast charging…I mean how much energy does it take to heat/cool a 1500 lbs battery +/- 1C - and how many C's do you need to move the battery to get it to "ideal" - and entire fast charging session is 30 minutes or less - and just from driving my other EV's, Taycan, Macan EV - battery temp doesn't move that fast…at least not that I've seen…

when we were driving from Albuquerque to Grand Canyon in my Macan EV - battery temp in the morning was 54F - and 2 hours later after driving 75+ mph - battery temp was only 61F - a move of 7F in 120 minutes…while driving and using the battery at 75+ mph…and heating the cabin and such…

it's not that the battery can not be cooled/heated to the ideal temp - it's how long will take - and during that time what is happening to the batteries SOC while you're charging - cause once you're above about 50% you're no longer getting max rate…even if temp is ideal.

so it's a matter of what do you want to do with that first 10 minutes of charging…spend it "heating the battery" - or spend it charging the battery as fast as possible because the heating/cooling has already been done…fd

when I tracked my Taycan @ Laguna Seca - after 6 or more laps I hit "max battery" temp of 132F according to the Porsche dash board so I came off track because I was down on max power due to being at temp limits for the battery - once I parked the Taycan it took more than 25 minutes to lower the battery temp from 132F to 122F in 64F ambient conditions with from the sound of it the cooling system running full bore while the car sat idle…so that's 10F in 25 min with the thermal system running full out and ambient thermal conditions "helping" because it was only 64F…well 25 min is an entire charging session at 150 kW - so by the time we lowered the battery temp 10F - a charging session would've been nearly done…

you simply can't move the battery temp up/down all that quickly - and in the context of a 30 minute fast charging stop - there is hardly any opportunity to affect the battery temp even with active measures - that's why in the 30 min to 1 hour before you arrive at the the charging stop is the ideal time to be pushing the battery into the correct range so it's ready and optimal for the that 1st 10 mins…

take the J1.2 Taycan for example - it's max charge rate is 320 kW (I"m soooo jealous) - well 10 minutes of 320 kW - is 55 kWh of battery capacity - or over 50% of the Total battery capacity in the first 10 min of plugging in…once you've pumped 55 kWh of capacity into the battery you're most likely well over 50% SOC and no longer getting max optimal charge rate - those first 10 min are magically fast - but only if the battery is already "in the zone" - otherwise it will take way longer than 10 min to "move" the battery's temp up/down in any meaningful way…and then your opportunity is "gone" to achieve max rate - because even at a slow 150-170 kW - you will have pushed the battery beyond 50% SOC and therefore also out of the ideal charging rate zone…

the max charge rate is highly perishable - and once the window (time, SOC, temp) is gone - it's gone and you're stuck with a slower charge rate for the rest of the session.

at least that's the way I see it.

 

[McgR]

Not solving your issue. But why do you want to navigate with ABRP?

I planned my route and ABRP and put them as favorites in My Porsche app and chose them in the car.

When driving in the winter for longer trips It does make a diffenrence. Battery stays colder and stops are less fun because of rain and colder temperaturen outside.

Side note. Tom Tom in CarPlay doesn’t cancel PCM navigation and they can both be active at the same time. So it is possible.

Side note 2. BMW has a button in Idrive to activate pre conditioning of the battery. So that is possible too and it would be nice to have in this scenario

 

[FredC057]

On your phone it’s possible to run multiple navigation systems at the same time. ABRP with all your stops, Waze with the final destination and coyote for the radar detection for example so the car will have a problem to know which one to use.
That one I understand and it would mean to have a selection on the car to say which one to follow.

BUT it used to work to have the pcm navigation of the car working at the same time as CarPlay.
Didn’t work for me, then it worked for a year until I changed my phone and upgraded to iOS 18.
It doesn’t work anymore and now I’m missing even more than when it never worked.
I really like having Waze on CarPlay big and visible with the sound active and the pcm in the background without the sound and that gives me the % at arrival. Meaning that when the % is too high I can go to another station or drive way faster.
Now for long trips I have to cancel the CarPlay connection and keep Waze just on my phone which is harder to see but way better for traffic.
So to me it’s a CarPlay issue and not Porsche but I can’t reproduce it anymore.

 

[McgR]

On your phone it’s possible to run multiple navigation systems at the same time. ABRP with all your stops, Waze with the final destination and coyote for the radar detection for example so the car will have a problem to know which one to use.
That one I understand and it would mean to have a selection on the car to say which one to follow.

BUT it used to work to have the pcm navigation of the car working at the same time as CarPlay.
Didn’t work for me, then it worked for a year until I changed my phone and upgraded to iOS 18.
It doesn’t work anymore and now I’m missing even more than when it never worked.
I really like having Waze on CarPlay big and visible with the sound active and the pcm in the background without the sound and that gives me the % at arrival. Meaning that when the % is too high I can go to another station or drive way faster.
Now for long trips I have to cancel the CarPlay connection and keep Waze just on my phone which is harder to see but way better for traffic.
So to me it’s a CarPlay issue and not Porsche but I can’t reproduce it anymore.

The predicted SoC at arrival may even be more important indeed like you mention. Forgot about that. Althoug ABRP can Connect to the Taycan and also monitor the current soc speed etc. In my experience it was way less accurate that PCM because is has the sync with the app and not the car directly.

Maybe a good work around would be to switch CarPlay off and navigate on PCM and ABRP separate on iPhone (or iPad)

 

[FredC057]

That’s what I do lately :
switch CarPlay off and navigate on PCM and separate on iPhone, ABRP and Waze at the same time.

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