Battery's range is a problem?

riburn3

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No way I'm using Tesla Destination Chargers as my "Plan B". My "Plan B" is always going to be a EA charger further down the road if at all possible. Campground Outlets and Tesla Destination Chargers might be "Plan C" and then 120V charging a "Plan D". ...and staying overnight is pretty far down on my list of "Plans".
In my case both EA chargers after Lake Charles in Lafayette and Hammond were out so that wasn't an option. It took them until noon the next day to get them up and running. Going back to Beaumont would have been useless since even a full charge there wouldn't have allowed me to skip 3 whole chargers.
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riburn3

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3. You plan on doing Road trips.
Honestly if you have a Tesla 3 or Y road trips are a breeze and not much slower. They're great road trip EV's. Tesla's in general are all fine for road trips but the newer models charge so much faster. Once EA is more consistent with their network, cars like the Porsche will be wonderful on road trips since they too charge very quickly and the Porsche in particular is such a nice ride.
 

evanevery

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Yup, that's sound advice. Don't spend any amount of money, let alone 6 figures on an EV vehicle unless you fully understand what you are jumping into. It doesn't matter how seasoned anyone is with vehicles, specifically ICE vehicles when it comes to owning an EV. Even coming from a Tesla for 7 years and now owning a 4S was still a learning experience.
Honestly if you have a Tesla 3 or Y road trips are a breeze and not much slower. They're great road trip EV's. Tesla's in general are all fine for road trips but the newer models charge so much faster. Once EA is more consistent with their network, cars like the Porsche will be wonderful on road trips since they too charge very quickly and the Porsche in particular is such a nice ride.
Could be...

I have 6 year old Model-X and it never "wanted" to go on a Road Trip. The Taycan just begs to go out and run!

(We were going to sell the MX when we got the Taycan but my Wife prefers it over the Taycan. Given all the software and usability issues, I'ld just as soon keep her in the Tesla so I don't have to "hear about it"... IE. "How much did we pay for this car?")
 

riburn3

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Could be...

I have 6 year old Model-X and it never "wanted" to go on a Road Trip. The Taycan just begs to go out and run!

(We were going to sell the MX when we got the Taycan but my Wife prefers it over the Taycan. Given all the software and usability issues, I'ld just as soon keep her in the Tesla so I don't have to "hear about it"... IE. "How much did we pay for this car?")
Hmmm, Model X didn't start delivering to the public until 5 years ago. Either way, I'm in the same boat. My wife loves her MX. I still keep my 2013 P85 Model S for nostalgia, it's a piece of automotive history, and part of me wants my daughter to drive it in a decade when she can drive. You're right though, the Taycan is a drivers car. It's so fun.
 
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RonMcg

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Yup, that's sound advice. Don't spend any amount of money, let alone 6 figures on an EV vehicle unless you fully understand what you are jumping into. It doesn't matter how seasoned anyone is with vehicles, specifically ICE vehicles when it comes to owning an EV. Even coming from a Tesla for 7 years and now owning a 4S was still a learning experience.
Well said!
 


daveo4EV

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I researched the cost of replacing the batteries and it would be around 6 to 7 thousand dollars.
regarding the cost of replacing EV batteries I authored this write up on rennlist - it was well received…post #11

https://rennlist.com/forums/taycan-and-mission-e/1125698-battery-replacement-cost.html

the only data we have to date regarding the longevity of LiON batteries and various chemistries is as follows
  1. Tesla Roadsters - 2008 model year - battery loss worse case is about 15% after 100,000 miles - many cars are far less - battery still works - https://www.plugincars.com/tesla-roa...es-127733.html
  2. Tesla Model S - 2012 - battery loss worse case is about 10% after 200,000 mile, many cars are far less - battery still works - https://steinbuch.wordpress.com/2015...radation-data/ - vast majority as of 2018 are less than 5% overall capacity loss
  3. Hybrids - with various size batteries - nothing that is excessive or debilitating - no significant data showing major capacity loss beyond single digits
  4. 2011 Nissan Leaf - 60% battery is not uncommon and battery replacement in the US is about $7500 (not worth it) - in Japan refurbished batteries are a $2150 replacement (more manageable)
the difference between the Leaf and all the others is active thermal management (both heating and cooling the battery as necessary). We are still early in this whole EV thing, but we are now starting to have years of data, and millions of miles driven as a fleet, and to date the data in my opinion pretty clearly shows that a properly managed LiON battery has very few longevity issues. I'm awaiting more data, but nothing I've seen to date (other than the Leaf) has me concerned.

Also I still bristle at the concept of "having to replace the battery". What criteria or condition are you referring to that would "force" you to replace the battery? Yes LiON batteries degrade in terms of total charge capacity, but they don't seem to fail in great numbers. 10 years out you may have lost 10% total charge capacity - probably less - which means your 310 mile car is now a 280 mile car. So the _ONLY_ reason to replace the battery is if that 30 mile range loss is harshing your buzz on a daily basis and we already know the use case for EV and cars in general is that 98% of the daily work load is less than 70 mile's driven. So the car still functions and still works, but you can't push it to it's optimal range, and if you are trying to do so you'll need to charge slightly more often (again not a big deal if you're charging at home over night).

I have a few more thoughts that for me put this in context.
  1. It's doubtful you ever used the full range of your battery other than a few times - so as long as it meets your typical daily needs there is nothing forcing a battery replacement
  2. Cost of battery replacement is in line with any existing ICE car expense at the 100's of thousands of miles type of major service
  3. You've spent less on maintaining and fueling an EV than you would on an ICE with equivalent miles so you're probably actually ahead of the game
  4. there is virtually no data that indicates batteries "fail" outright - they continue to work in a reduced capacity in terms of total kWh stored in a given charge cycle
  5. the biggest loss of capacity is in the first few years, the trend line's slope then becomes much more favorable
  6. the battery you're replacing is a high value component and can be reused for other purposes (off grid power storage in commerical/home applications) - it's a high value item
  7. even with reduced range in a few years there will be more fast charging infrastructure, so if you do need to drive distance it will probably be easier to charge the battery and it might add 10-20 minutes to your over all trip that you take infrequently (2 charging stops vs. 1 or 3 stops vs. 2 for a given long distance drive)
  8. _IF_ you decide to replace the battery because you really really want that 10% range back, you are very very likely to get a better battery for your expense. Battery tech is processing steadily year over year and it's highly likely you will receive a high capacity battery with better chemistry and characteristic's than the battery you replaced breathing new life into the car. So you might not do it for the range you've lost but rather than benefit you'll gain with a improved battery vs. the battery the day you've bought the car.
  9. Using refurbished batteries greatly changes the cost equation on replacement and is very likely to become more common as volume grows and experience increases - replacement costs are likely to come down substantially and will make this even less of an issue.
the only case for replacing a Lion battery based on data is:
  1. you own a Nissan Leaf - my apologies for multiple reasons beyond the battery, but yes the battery is one of them
  2. you are using 90-95% of the car's original range capacity multiple times a week - and fast charging during the day is not an option - I'll argue this is very very uncommon - and if this is your use case EV's are not quite ready for you as a customer - keep your ICE car for the time being.
conclusion
  1. don't buy a Nissan Leaf, and even with the current leaf Nissan has it's head up it's ass - you MUST thermally manage LiON batteries for longevity
  2. proper thermally managed LiON battery life is at least as good as the typical life span of any car - replacement cost is expensive but inline with any sort of major component cost you'd encounter from a ICE car…
  3. there is no data indicating outright failure is a common (or even rare) occurrence - rather the batteries continue to operate at reduced capacities for quite some time - but if their capacity meet/exceed your daily needs battery replacement is un-necessary.
basically for me worrying about the battery is a high visibility non-issue that people like to focus on but honestly the data doesn't support that it's a major concern or an insurmountable problem - but time will tell.

I will NOT buy an EV with LiON battery that does not have active thermal management - Nissan has proven this to be a fool hardy approach
 
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daveo4EV

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also like a gasoline based vehicle - range will vary - there is NO one number - range will vary on conditions and driving style, but mostly based on speed. I did a highway run last week and got 3.2 miles/kWh as range efficiency - 4 hours - highway speeds, that pencils out to 270 mile range - I achieve that in range mode and shaving 2-4 mph off posted speed limits.

I’ve driven EV’s since 2012 - and have own Tesla’s for 7 years - my combined fleet of EV’s have driven over 200,000 miles in that time - unless you’re driving over 200 miles a day frequently (weekly or monthly) EV range doesn’t really matter.

range will take huge hit however when outside temperatures drop below 40-30F or lower this is because of a number of factors:
  1. road conditions in these temps tend to be worse and cause additonal load on just moving the vehicle
  2. the Battery Management Softare (BMS) will use battery capacity to “heat” the LiON cells for battery longevity - charging/discharging LiON cells in low temps is a quick way to kill a LiON battery cell
  3. colder air is denser air and increases aero-dynamic drag - speeds above 40 mph are even more expensive than normal
  4. for some reason the vehicle’s occupants also feel they deserve to be warn/comfortable - so additional battery capacity is consumed keeping the cabin at acceptable temperatures - since there is no waste heat to fill this role
range can be expected to be 30% (or more) less in cold winter temperatures and EV owners should plan accordingly.

your in car range estimator will vary widely - the Chevy Bolt community refers to the range estimator as the “guess-o-meter” - and my experience with all EV’s (including the Taycan) is it’s truly a guess. The vehicle provides a range estimate based on your recent past driving consumption, and is therefore easily lead astray - it has “no magic” that let’s it know you’re about to start a 50 mile uphill drive (hwy 80 to tahoe) or a 50 mile downhill drive (hwy 80 from Tahoe) - therefore it will show how far you can go based the past few 100 miles you’ve driven. The ways in which this range estimate could be wrong are numerous and easily forseen.

The best way to determine how far you can go is to put a destination in to the PCM navigation and look for the battery % indication on the nav screen. That number should be correct for +/- 5% if you stick to posted speed limits and it’s not -23F outside. If you need to go further than the range estimate indicated there is one and only one way to increase range…reduce speed. Above 40 mph aero-dynamic drag is a killer - and the faster you drive, the more expensive it gets…at 40 mph you might be able to drive the Taycan nearly 400 miles on a full charge - flat level terrian - at 80 mph you’ll be lucky to get 180 mph range - speed is the range killer - and EV’s require a different approach when hopping from one fast charging site to another during a road trip.

My experience to date with the Taycan is it’s a reliable 250 mile vehicle on a full charge - which means with only 2 30 min. stops a day - you can drive 750 miles in ONE day. At 60 mph average speed that is 12 1/2 hours of seat time in a single day - which I consider an extreme case of road tripping - a single well planned stop each day will easily let any EV owner drive 480-550 miles - if you then pick a Hotel with EV charging (there are more than you realize once you start looking) you can leave the next day at full and drive another 550 miles with a single 30 min stop over lunch…

depending on how it’s driven the Taycan is a 180-320 mile range car with 250 being a very reliable number - however this doesn’t matter most of the time as you drive less than 100 miles/day and charge an EV over night like your cell phone. Road tripping requires some planning, but that will get better, not worse, over time and once you have your common routes and personal knowledge about your charging options even that will become no big deal.

congrats on the Taycan it’s a great car, but approach with an open mind looking for the pros and cons - this is a new form of personal transporation and you’ll find new joys, and new concerns, but on the whole once most driver acclimate to EVs they love them can can not forsee going back to gas vehicles - they become quite enamored with them.
 

manitou202

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Well, Riburn3, I am not sure what a TROLL actually is, you are referring to, but I am a very impulsive person. I have owned Porches for the past 50 years and other high end cars in my life. You did give me some good information and I appreciate that. If you read any of my responses to others, I accept it is what it is to drive an EV. Lesson learned, I would recommend the Taycan, but only if the person knows what they are getting into if it is their first, like me.
There is a lot of bad information about EV's coming from Sales Associates and dealerships. All of them (including Tesla) are guilty of this. When buying our first EV (Gen 1 Nissan Leaf) the Nissan dealership told me that I should be able to drive it to Denver and back (about 120 miles round trip on highway). I had done enough research to know this was BS. It's a major problem because they really risk making customers mad as hell if they aren't honest about the experience.

My local Porsche dealership has been great and they took the time to make sure their Sales Associates were very educated on the Taycan. But this doesn't hold true for all Porsche dealerships. Many seem to be rejecting EV's instead of embracing them which is creating more misinformation.

Again, good luck with your Taycan. I really think you'll be happy in the long run.
 


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@RonMcg , I guess that the balance between "like the car" and "some inconvenience on road trip" is still tilted the Taycan's way, otherwise you probably would have gotten rid of it. The consolation I can offer is that the love fore the car is unlikely to change, whereas the convenience of charging will probably improve over next couple years. On top of that, as you get more comfortable with EV driving, you will become more trusting to drive to lower state of charge. - I frequently plan for 10-15% at destination.

I agree with @evanevery that for the time being you are better off keeping a buffer big enough to be able to skip one charging station, which in the Midwest translate into slowing you down significantly. With so many EVs from multiple manufacturers coming to the market, this is bound to change.
 
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riburn3

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There is a lot of bad information about EV's coming from Sales Associates and dealerships. All of them (including Tesla) are guilty of this. When buying our first EV (Gen 1 Nissan Leaf) the Nissan dealership told me that I should be able to drive it to Denver and back (about 120 miles round trip on highway). I had done enough research to know this was BS. It's a major problem because they really risk making customers mad as hell if they aren't honest about the experience.
This hits the nail on the head in terms of EV sales, especially by manufacturer's that don't really specialize in EV's to begin with. You think about a car like an Audi etron or a Nissan Leaf, these cars make up a small fraction of the sales for most dealerships in the US outside California, and in many places you're lucky if they even have one on the lot. On top of that, dealerships don't really like EV's because they rarely require repairs, which is where they make their nut. When something does break, there's usually only one technician that is "certified" to handle the issue, which pulls him from something else.

I've found when these dealers actually do get an EV on the lot, the consumers interested in making the purchase are often more educated in the vehicle than the Salesman. To be fair that happens a lot with ICE purchases too, but EV's are different animals.

Ultimately one advantage the Taycan is going to have is that it is selling very well, which means dealerships are getting much more familiar with them and they are required to have more people that know how to work on them. Thankfully, this means the experience for consumers is going to improve. This isn't a car that sits in the nether-regions of a car lot that 1 person every 2 months wants to look at.
 

riburn3

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  1. Tesla Roadsters - 2008 model year - battery loss worse case is about 15% after 100,000 miles - many cars are far less - battery still works - https://www.plugincars.com/tesla-roa...es-127733.html
  2. Tesla Model S - 2012 - battery loss worse case is about 10% after 200,000 mile, many cars are far less - battery still works - https://steinbuch.wordpress.com/2015...radation-data/ - vast majority as of 2018 are less than 5% overall capacity loss
  3. Hybrids - with various size batteries - nothing that is excessive or debilitating - no significant data showing major capacity loss beyond single digits
  4. 2011 Nissan Leaf - 60% battery is not uncommon and battery replacement in the US is about $7500 (not worth it) - in Japan refurbished batteries are a $2150 replacement (more manageable)
Great stuff. My 2013 P85 Model S with about 80k miles had lost about 9 miles from its rated range of 265 miles. 3.3% battery loss. When I first bought the car and even today I believe you are told to expect close to 5% loss around 50k miles. The car has exceeded all expectations, but charging habits do matter. My routine is I never go above an 80% charge, 90% for road trips, and have charged it to 100% 4 times in 7 years.

I expect the Taycan to hold up just as well, especially when part of the battery capacity is walled off, so you can never truly charge to 100%.
 

daveo4EV

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when I finish a track day @ Laguna Seca my '18 GT3 "computer" thinks I can only drive 85 miles or so on a full tank of gas - that's because I've been pounding around at nearly full 9k rpm all day for the past 2 to 3 hours of drive/engine time - this originally freaked me out - but I now know the trip computer is simply confused because I've been getting 5-6 mpg for the past two hours so it's very pessimistic as to my total range…

the range indicator in your Taycan is no more sophisticated and will make equally outlandish claims…and is just as easily mislead.

years ago driving home from north star my BMW 35id claiimed at the bottom of 80 south that we could go another 857 miles because we had been coasting downhill for the past hour…again a triip computer that has been "fooled" by recent usage and incorrectly extrapolating recent consumption onto future consumption…

both Tesla and Taycan have excellent in car navigation systems that if you enter a destination the Navigation User Interface will show you expected battery percentages at your destination - I've found these to be more accurate, because they know the route, speed limits, distance, and elevation changes between point a and point b…

if the Porsche NAV says you can get there and there is a 5-10% buffer - then I'd have pretty high confidence the car is capable of making the drive - I would still check plug-share for a quality assessment of the charging options in that location - but there is a driving profile you could follow to get there if the navi-computer says it can make it with xx% left - where xx% is greater than 10%…
 

riburn3

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both Tesla and Taycan have excellent in car navigation systems that if you enter a destination the Navigation User Interface will show you expected battery percentages at your destination - I've found these to be more accurate, because they know the route, speed limits, distance, and elevation changes between point a and point b…
This was one thing that surprised me the Porsche NAV did so well. The Tesla does an awesome job of predicted arrival range, although it can be pretty conservative, and when you look at expected energy usage, you can even see where the system knows where a downhill slope will be, expected regen, or where you're going to eat a ton of energy going uphill. To my surprise, the Taycan NAV was about the same, and likewise would often underestimate its own range.

When driving my Tesla between supercharges, I usually unplug when it says I will arrive with 10% battery as it's been my experience that I almost always end up getting there with 15-20% battery even going above the speed limit. So far the Porsche has been similar, but I usually just give it the full 25-30 minutes charge since the EA chargers when they work are so awesome and fast (and it's free).
 

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My daily drive is between 10-15 miles per day and up to 70 per day possibly on the weekend. I intend to use a household socket to keep my car charged but happy to stop at a rapid (found a 150kw) local charger once every 2 weeks for 20mins.

like it’s been been said anything more than 120mile regular daily use and the car is not suitable
 

daveo4EV

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like it’s been been said anything more than 120mile regular daily use and the car is not suitable
that’s not true if you have 240 volt charging installed - which in the UK is pretty common - 7.2 kw charging would restore 120 miles of charging (40 kwh) in about 6 hours of overnight charging.
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