📒 Exhaustive documents of J1 platform Audi E-tron GT / Taycan [250 pages of detailed technical information]

[Mr.Smith]

This is indeed, perplexing. Electric motors are, well, pretty freaking common! And used for all kinds of high horsepower applications as well. But still, to this day, Tesla has some of the best motor calibration in the business. It really makes me wonder if it's because they are so vertically integrated and can control the code for all the components that go into making the car go and stop. Because that will be the one thing I miss from my Tesla when it's gone soon, that absolutely pin-sharp response to the go pedal

I was being facetious.
Toyota and Daimler both bailed on Tesla because Tesla didn't have any advantages they initially thought.
Tesla advantage was risk which these manufacturers wouldn't take, but it's not like they didn't know what Tesla was doing and couldn't emulate it.
Remember the second gen RAV4 EV was developed by Tesla so if there a secret Tesla has, the biggest auto maker on the planet would know.

What makes Tesla
- Takes risks companies won't take
- Pushes Regulatory envelope or flat out ignores.
- Short term view for quarterly earnings calls.
- Companies Stock is the product. Cars, solar, energy storage, robots, insurance, rockets are marketing tools for the stock.

We have very technical people here. I would love to know what makes Teslas motors best in class, what patents they have related to motors, what is their secret sauce?
Everyone OEM has benchmarked and did Sandy Monroe type of teardowns. Still no one knows.

Batteries are Panasonic which any OEM can acquire. Now they are using CATL which also sells to any OEM

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[TDinDC]

You obviously have some strong loathing of the i8 “paperweight” ?.

Here in the UK an estate car is a better utility vehicle than a “Sports”, “utility” vehicle.
None of them are sporty because of height, crap aero and weight and they don’t have as much real utility as an estate car, compare a BMW X5 with a 5-series estate car, it is slower, handles worse, has less usable space inside and is heavier.

OTOH they are the fashionable choice here nowadays and fashion is far more powerful influence in peoples choices than good sense.

There are not any great ones I am aware of, certainly not for the roads around here.

I don't loathe the i8. Really. I just think it was more of an exercise in fashion and styling than excellence in automotive performance. I thought it looked good in all black or all dark blue. The two tone models seemed clownish to me.

I tend to have European sensibilities when it comes to transport, and the reasons you listed are precisely what led me to purchase a Taycan Cross Turismo with off road package (and soon to have real winter tires). I view it as a much better performing SUV than the Cayenne.

BTW, I drove the Cayenne GT (or whatever they call the new high end performance Cayenne), and, while the sound was fantastic, It felt like driving yesterday, particularly when I got right into a Taycan after that.

 

[TDinDC]

Really?
I don’t view it as a SUV at all, even with the off road package protective trim.
It is, sadly, heavy enough to be one but its small frontal area and fairly good aero make it most unlike one.

It is what is called an estate car round here. If it was like an SUV I wouldn’t have considered it.
I see the Cayenne as one of a long line of Porsche tweaked Volkswagens.

I do. only 1-2% of luxury SUVs are ever taken anywhere other than, at most, a dirt road. Most are used on asphalt and for snow.

AWD = Check

Slightly Higher Ground Clearance so that you aren't worried about ripping off chin spoilers all of the time = Check

Snow/Gravel mode = Check

Roof rack = check

mild towing capability = check

Passenger space for 4 (and even 5 in a pinch) = check

Additional cargo space = check

The form is different and, yes, it is a little smaller than the Cayenne, but the Cross Tursimo serves exactly the same need as the Cayenne for the vast majority of drivers (at least in the way they actually use them).

 

[TDinDC]

I accept that the styling is a matter of taste, but the lightweight engineering and the clever (if derided) choice of the 3-cylinder high boost engine with an electric motor solving the lag is all a pure engineering choice - not fashion influenced at all.
It is an excellent car using racing car logic IMO - obviously not using road car fan logic based on its reception on car enthusiast sites.
Personally I prefer a high revving normally aspirated engine, 3 pedals and 6 on the floor for a sports car but I am weird.

I agree with all of this but . . . it was slow and it didn't handle particularly well. It is super easy to fall in love with the idea of the i8, but the reality IMO did not deliver.

It is kind of like waking up the next morning next to the bird you pulled after an epic night of consumption only to realize just how epic the consumption part of the night must have been!

 

[f1eng]

Stock is the product. Cars, solar, energy storage, robots, insurance, rockets are marketing tools for the stock.

Exactly.

 

[Gwaihir]

Guys, as interesting as all of the comments lately are, maybe we should get back to discussing the excellent document the OP provided a link to???

???

No problem from me. Still think it’s the best data ever added.
Any high jacking was never intended, just a heated entry commented. One that ballooned a little more than needed.

 

[Gwaihir]

I was being facetious.
Toyota and Daimler both bailed on Tesla because Tesla didn't have any advantages they initially thought.
Tesla advantage was risk which these manufacturers wouldn't take, but it's not like they didn't know what Tesla was doing and couldn't emulate it.
Remember the second gen RAV4 EV was developed by Tesla so if there a secret Tesla has, the biggest auto maker on the planet would know.

What makes Tesla
- Takes risks companies won't take
- Pushes Regulatory envelope or flat out ignores.
- Short term view for quarterly earnings calls.
- Companies Stock is the product. Cars, solar, energy storage, robots, insurance, rockets are marketing tools for the stock.

We have very technical people here. I would love to know what makes Teslas motors best in class, what patents they have related to motors, what is their secret sauce?
Everyone OEM has benchmarked and did Sandy Monroe type of teardowns. Still no one knows.

Batteries are Panasonic which any OEM can acquire. Now they are using CATL which also sells to any OEM

I think I mentioned previously: Tesla freely makes their Patents open to the world. Yes, I know it’s hard to comprehend, but apparently true. They want ALL manufacturers to benefit from their ideas, while staying just a few years behind. I’m not sure any legacy Automotive company would ever want that. So you should be able to find out?

It was this fact that started me thinking they didn’t care what others were doing. Tesla must have a high level of confidence about staying ahead. We are already seeing some ideas being adopted By competitors. With the structural battery and larger cell size being adopted by - the faster moving - competition.

 

[B61]

EDIT: apparently the heat pump function is not present on every Taycan. I don't know which ones have it.

Don;t know for other markets, but heat pump is/was an option when i placed my order.
I took it, based on dealer’s recommendation. he said that it helps to prepare battery for charging, but i couldn’t recall, what he said about cabin heating.

 

[rs38]

Guys, as interesting as all of the comments lately are, maybe we should get back to discussing the excellent document the OP provided a link to???

? as well as the OP also drives an i8 for many years and does not agree at all with the bad reputation of that beautiful car.
It only has two downsides: it looks faster as it is, and was a bit too expensive.

Performance is nice if the battery isn't empty: 100-200 kph 9,6 Sec. 80-140kph 3,8 Sec.
The fuel efficiency is more than excellent

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

OP [...]does not agree at all with the bad reputation of that beautiful car.
It only has two downsides: it looks faster as it is, and was a bit too expensive.

That's _exactly_ what this thread criticized about the i8.

 

[rs38]

but 50% of that critique isn't valid anymore the price dropped quite a lot.

 

[Needsdecaf]

I was being facetious.
Toyota and Daimler both bailed on Tesla because Tesla didn't have any advantages they initially thought.
Tesla advantage was risk which these manufacturers wouldn't take, but it's not like they didn't know what Tesla was doing and couldn't emulate it.
Remember the second gen RAV4 EV was developed by Tesla so if there a secret Tesla has, the biggest auto maker on the planet would know.

What makes Tesla
- Takes risks companies won't take
- Pushes Regulatory envelope or flat out ignores.
- Short term view for quarterly earnings calls.
- Companies Stock is the product. Cars, solar, energy storage, robots, insurance, rockets are marketing tools for the stock.

We have very technical people here. I would love to know what makes Teslas motors best in class, what patents they have related to motors, what is their secret sauce?
Everyone OEM has benchmarked and did Sandy Monroe type of teardowns. Still no one knows.

Batteries are Panasonic which any OEM can acquire. Now they are using CATL which also sells to any OEM

Ignore their benefits at your own peril. I won't lose any sleep over it but if you've owned a Tesla, you would know that they really DO have some advantages. Whereas you see the dubious business case (I point I will not disagree with), the devil, as they say, is in the details. And it is these details that Tesla gets right.

Tesla is all in on vertical integration. And their ability to have complete control over all of the software IS their secret sauce. It's not really hardware. As you say, plenty of people have torn down Teslas, hell even Tesla themselves give away patented information on the open market. No, what makes them excellent when it comes to EV's are two things: Complete vertical integration of all componentry which allows them to understand all the software and also a relentless obsession on efficiency in unlikely places. Like the Octovalve and the Superbottle.

Why do you think no one has been able to send OTA's like Tesla has? Too many freaking modules from suppliers with different firmware requirements. Porsche is a joke in this area. Even Ford is beating them in OTA capability.

Look, I'm not a Tesla homer. Mine is gone as soon as my wife's Cayenne gets to the dealer, and there are many, MANY things I won't miss. I won't miss the cult of Tesla. I won't miss being part of the Elon-verse. The shady business dealings. Software updates that suddenly remove features or make things worse. The BS rain sensor from a camera. Their stubborn insistence that vision-only is the way to go with Autonomy. The atrotrious part quality. The gets-worse-by-the-day service. The outright fraud that is "Full Self Driving". The miserable ride quality. No Apple Carplay. Spotty Spotify coverage. No blended Braking. Etc.

But...Tesla does have a number of advantages. Even though all of the above is true and then some, I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am empirical enough to recognize what they got right. And they got a whole bunch of big stuff right. Like:

• Software that's easy to use. Get in, the car starts. Get out it shuts off. Ultimate user programability.
• OTA which has added COUNTLESS features with real value. Like Dashcam, Sentry mode, blind spot cameras on blink, Pet Mode, Camp mode, efficiency improvements, range improvements, braking improvements, etc. Beyond the farting, the games, etc. if you add up the features I've received in 4 years, for FREE, this is real value. Thousands of dollars worth of usable features.
• Super, super smooth drivetrains. Their pedal control is absolutely excellent. You think about what you want to do and the car does it as quickly as your foot moves.
• Super efficient driving. My lifetime average, which includes a LOT of highway miles at speeds of 80 plus, is 263 Wh/mile. That's not bad for a vehicle capable of 0-60 in just over 3 seconds.
• Supercharger network. True plug and go with excellent charging speeds and excellent reliability.

So yeah, shit on them all you want. The reality is they have innovated WAY more than just people along for the ride with the stock. My neighborhood is literally crawling with Model 3's and Model Y's. They aren't all stockholders.....

I don't view this as a dig against Porsche. Competition is good for all comers in the space and Porsche is catching up. The EV Macan is going to take all the lessons learned on the Taycan and blend them with Porsche Engineering, build quality and driving dynamics. It'll be a massive jump forward. I'm looking forward to it. And I bet some of the lessons learned came from that California brand starting with a T....

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