Infrastructure Bill passed. I don’t think this is good.

Climax_F82

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currently under the current regulations the date of manufacture is irrelevant. it is the date that YOU take delivery that triggers when the credit can be claimed on your tax return
Doesn't the $7,500 credit go towards your down payment and not on your tax return? At least that's how my dealership says it is if you lease. If you purchase, it's only $1,500 that you can claim on your tax return.
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Bella

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Doesn't the $7,500 credit go towards your down payment and not on your tax return? At least that's how my dealership says it is if you lease. If you purchase, it's only $1,500 that you can claim on your tax return.
If you receive your car before the end of the year it’s $7500 as a tax credit or as a credit on your Lease. You have to owe $7500 to claim a credit if you purchase. No refunds from the Govt. In Ca u get a $750 instant credit when you pay for the car. Not sure how the $750 works if u lease.
 

Mr.Smith

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If you receive your car before the end of the year it’s $7500 as a tax credit or as a credit on your Lease. You have to owe $7500 to claim a credit if you purchase. No refunds from the Govt. In Ca u get a $750 instant credit when you pay for the car. Not sure how the $750 works if u lease.
$750 is a Point of sale rebate for approved CA dealers with the state, lease or purchase. It was $1500 until November 2 2021
Out of state dealers are not eligible for this $750 POS rebate.

If you are a socal edison customer, you qualify for $1000 rebate, up to 3 cars per person in a household

Taycan is no longer eligible for the $2000 California CVRP rebate
 
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kort

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Doesn't the $7,500 credit go towards your down payment and not on your tax return? At least that's how my dealership says it is if you lease. If you purchase, it's only $1,500 that you can claim on your tax return.
do you actually take tax or financial advise from a car dealership? you should seek the advice of a tax professional because the remarks are not quite right, he is correct that if you lease the $7500 tax credit is taken by porsche NA and used as a cap cost reduction but if you buy the tax credit can, under current regs., be up to $7500. depending on your situation.
 

whitex

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Online news stories (incl. CNET) often get many things wrong. Read the actual House bill. The Taycan is a sedan, and the limit on sedans seems fixed at $55k; $80k is for pickup trucks, as I recall. The point is that many other EV sedans, like the Mach-E GT, the Audi e-tron, and lots of the Teslas (incl. top version of Model 3) will be ineligible, also. I suspect that some automakers will try to adjust their MSRPs, especially for new vehicles coming out in the future, to fall under the new MSRP limits... Lots of cars may fall under the stated MSRP caps only if certain options are not taken...
A vast majority of EVs sold in USA will be ineligible for the rebate, which I believe is intentional to save the government money while still being able to say they incentivize EVs. I think you are right that if that passes, a new wave of compliance cars will come to market, though that might achieve the opposite of incentivizing EVs, and the new, cheap cars will not be long range, innovative new (read expensive) tech cars. Instead, they will be minimum required to get the rebate, unable to actually replace ICE cars, so reinforce a perception that an EV is just a commuter golf cart, rather than a true replacement for your ICE.
 
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kort

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A vast majority of EVs sold in USA will be ineligible for the rebate, which I believe is intentional to save the government money while still being able to say they incentivize EVs. I think you are right that if that passes, a new wave of compliance cars will come to market, though that might achieve the opposite of incentivizing EVs, and the new, cheap cars will not be long range, innovative new (read expensive) tech cars. Instead, they will be minimum required to get the rebate, unable to actually replace ICE cars, so reinforce a perception that an EV is just a commuter golf cart, rather than a true replacement for your ICE.
one way the EV manufacturers can "game" the system is to sell bare bone cars under the tax credit threshold and then sell the missing features via OTA subscriptions.
I believe that this is the route that they will take, selling one year, Nav, performance, battery capacity and so on is a way for them to allow the buyers to receive a tax credit under the planned schemes and then upsell the purchaser after the sale and then make more subscription sales down the road, a big new revenue stream for the manufacturers.
 

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one way the EV manufacturers can "game" the system is to sell bare bone cars under the tax credit threshold and then sell the missing features via OTA subscriptions.
I believe that this is the route that they will take, selling one year, Nav, performance, battery capacity and so on is a way for them to allow the buyers to receive a tax credit under the planned schemes and then upsell the purchaser after the sale and then make more subscription sales down the road, a big new revenue stream for the manufacturers.
Those are sometimes called compliance cars. Tesla tried that in Canada with a software locked 94 mile range Model 3. I don't think it was the long term success you'd think it would be. For new technology cars such as Taycan it also presents way to much financial risk, as they might have to sell below cost to make it under the rebate limit. Maybe some manufacturer could create a more involved version (e.g. a Taycan with only 40KWh battery, no rear seats, no rear motor, etc - then sell hardware retrofits for the bigger battery, add a motor, etc), but that is probably way too much work considering politicians would probably close that loophole after media runs with some latest hype like "average income of a Taycan buyer is $900K a year" (which I don't doubt is factually true, but most of the $900K comes from people like Bill Gates who owns at least one of them) and some politician will want to score point with his constituents by not subsidizing the rich people's toys. It would also potentially tarnish the brand, as some people would buy a compliance car and not be able to afford the upgrades, resulting in crappy 2 seater, 80 miles range, 180hp front wheel drive Taycans driving around.
 

kort

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Those are sometimes called compliance cars. Tesla tried that in Canada with a software locked 94 mile range Model 3. I don't think it was the long term success you'd think it would be. For new technology cars such as Taycan it also presents way to much financial risk, as they might have to sell below cost to make it under the rebate limit. Maybe some manufacturer could create a more involved version (e.g. a Taycan with only 40KWh battery, no rear seats, no rear motor, etc - then sell hardware retrofits for the bigger battery, add a motor, etc), but that is probably way too much work considering politicians would probably close that loophole after media runs with some latest hype like "average income of a Taycan buyer is $900K a year" (which I don't doubt is factually true, but most of the $900K comes from people like Bill Gates who owns at least one of them) and some politician will want to score point with his constituents by not subsidizing the rich people's toys. It would also potentially tarnish the brand, as some people would buy a compliance car and not be able to afford the upgrades, resulting in crappy 2 seater, 80 miles range, 180hp front wheel drive Taycans driving around.
the only profitable way to accomplish this scheme would be with software, shipping and installing hardware is way too costly
 


whitex

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the only profitable way to accomplish this scheme would be with software, shipping and installing hardware is way too costly
Yea, but selling below cost is losing money on every car that is never upgraded (or upgraded by owners under "right to repair", like some folks upgrading early software locked LR M3's to Performance via a dongle you can buy on the internet - not illegal btw since it doesn't actually modify the Tesla software, just an in-line CAN bus device which changes the commands to the motors). And herein lies the problem with this approach.
 

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A vast majority of EVs sold in USA will be ineligible for the rebate, which I believe is intentional to save the government money while still being able to say they incentivize EVs. I think you are right that if that passes, a new wave of compliance cars will come to market, though that might achieve the opposite of incentivizing EVs, and the new, cheap cars will not be long range, innovative new (read expensive) tech cars. Instead, they will be minimum required to get the rebate, unable to actually replace ICE cars, so reinforce a perception that an EV is just a commuter golf cart, rather than a true replacement for your ICE.
not true... most BEVs sold in the US will be eligible for the federal tax credit if the limit is $55k for sedans and $65k or $69k for SUVs. Most Polestar 2 cars, most Mach-E cars, most Model 3 cars, and all Bolts and Leafs fall under those limits already, for example. I think that the Volvo XC40 P8 also falls in the eligible range... I personally do see cars with "tablet"-style infotainment screens "glued" to the dashboard (i.e., Mach-E, most Teslas, Polestar 2, i3, ID.3, etc.) as golf-cart-type of EVs because they look so tacky and cheap. That said, I think that a lot of good styling is already being done on BEVs with MSRPs under $55k for sedans, and much more will be forthcoming... But don't underestimate how many people buy Corollas and Civics and Sparks and Malibus, and who don't want/need something that's really fun to drive or look at; most people see cars as just a tool to get them from one place to another, not as something enjoyable to be in...
 

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A vast majority of EVs sold in USA will be ineligible for the rebate, which I believe is intentional to save the government money while still being able to say they incentivize EVs.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. The most popular trims of all six top selling EV models in the US fit under the price caps.
 

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I'm not sure what you are talking about. The most popular trims of all six top selling EV models in the US fit under the price caps.
I cant imagine anywhere in the US with more Teslas than were I live in LA. 90% are SR+ Model 3s that fit right into this category
 

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I'm not sure what you are talking about. The most popular trims of all six top selling EV models in the US fit under the price caps.
Tesla is the top EV USA brand, likely outselling all others combined. Only 2 of 9 currently sold Tesla trims falls under $55K, only 1 falls under $50K should that become the limit, none with Autopilot option, but you can argue that can be a post delivery option. Y is a crossover, not an SUV (no more an SUV than Taycan CT). I would be seriously surprised if Model 3 Standard range sold more than all the other trims combined. Even if we add Model 3 Long Range (under $55K), Model Y total deliveries are the same or higher volume than all Model 3, so it this alone would mean more than half the Teslas sold are not Model 3 Standard Range Plus or Long Range.
 

285kph

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Tesla is the top EV USA brand, likely outselling all others combined. Only 2 of 9 currently sold Tesla trims falls under $55K, only 1 falls under $50K should that become the limit, none with Autopilot option, but you can argue that can be a post delivery option. Y is a crossover, not an SUV (no more an SUV than Taycan CT). I would be seriously surprised if Model 3 Standard range sold more than all the other trims combined. Even if we add Model 3 Long Range (under $55K), Model Y total deliveries are the same or higher volume than all Model 3, so it this alone would mean more than half the Teslas sold are not Model 3 Standard Range Plus or Long Range.
So the "vast majority" became "more than half" of the most expensive brand among the top selling EVs. Sounds more like it (even though it's off if one looks at the distribution of used M3s currently on the market). At $55k, Tesla should be able to manipulate prices to get more cars under the cap.
 

whitex

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So the "vast majority" became "more than half" of the most expensive brand among the top selling EVs. Sounds more like it (even though it's off if one looks at the distribution of used M3s currently on the market). At $55k, Tesla should be able to manipulate prices to get more cars under the cap.
It doesn't matter that it's the most expensive, what matters is that it's the most sold brand (Tesla sold over 77% of all new EV's in the USA this year). Here are some numbers from Car and Driver.

Porsche Taycan Infrastructure Bill passed. I don’t  think this is good. 1636619125761


That said, let's see what threshold will actually qualify for the incentive by the time this is signed into law. So far the number of qualified vehicles and buyers have been dropping every iteration of the bill. I'm going to bet it's going to be more than half of EV sales pre-incentive (since the incentive is bound to skew the numbers towards cars which do qualify of course, possibly new compliance models). Add to this the union shop provision, and right away 77+% of EV's sold in the USA would not qualify for that incentive. I know, you might not call 77% a vast majority, sure, let's just call it a majority then (>50%, so yes, more than half).
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