Thinking about trading my E63S Wagon for 4S CT - Is this a good or bad idea?

[Ross]

Fueling the 4S CT (or any EV) is far from free. Unless you're willing to submit yourself to the indignities of EA. Or somehow have a solar array generating excess kWh w/o the ability to sell it back to the grid via net metering.
And even though the E63S sounds like quite the fire-breathing dragon and gasoline-consuming monster, those incremental costs are trivial compared to the overall ownership costs of switching over to a Taycan.

As for the interior space, IFF (and that's a big IFF!) your E63S has interior space comparable to the A6ar, then the CT passenger comfort isn't all that much different (at least for people who aren't especially tall or wide, so another big caveat there), but the CT cargo capacity is vastly reduced (barely bigger than the smaller overall size class i4).

I know petrol/gasoline is cheaper in US and electricity may be more expensive but to say:

'Those incremental costs are trivial compared to the overall ownership costs of switching over to a Taycan.' is just not true.

When Brembo writes it costs 'nothing' to fuel a Taycan we all understand that is a euphemism for 'not very much' or it is so insignificant you don't notice the cost.

Buying a 2021 CT Taycan in the current market is a great move as it has done most of its depreciation.

I don't have solar or battery storage, I just charge both my electric cars 99% of the time at home on night rate 7p per KW

We don't have free EA type charging in UK but we get discount 30p rates.
That extra cost is balanced by going to places with complimentary charging.
No one ever put 2 gallons of fuel in your car at a restaurant while you have lunch.
No one at a hotel gives you a full tank when you stay overnight.

As I have stated above the difference between 20,000 miles in any 11 mpg car or a Taycan with home charging is in the UK in excess of £11,000.
This is the exact opposite of 'trivial' and 'incremental', to me at least.
The Taycan will depreciate further in value, yes, but the E63 is also depreciating (and contributing much more to global warming)

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[Jonathan S.]

[...] 'Those incremental costs are trivial compared to the overall ownership costs of switching over to a Taycan.' is just not true. [...]

As an economist, I have to admit that my use of "trivial" is not a strictly defined financial term.
However, unless the theoretically contemplated used 4S CT is a high-mileage lightly optioned private seller listing and the to-be-sold AMG wagon is a garage queen that generates a bidding war at BaT, I'm doubtful as to the significance of the off-setting effect of the potential cost savings from charging vs fueling.

As for what people really mean when they claim that EV recharging costs "nothing" -- many on-line posters have meant that literally, usually via an incorrect understanding of net metering, but, far more rarely, quite correctly when they do have excess solar production that can't be sold back to the grid.

Personally, we have solar, but we also have net metering, so the solar has zero impact on our EV charging costs (which are about a 1/3 of comparable ICE models, but those annual savings are probably less than the local property tax bill I received last week for our CT and i4).

 

[Dave Birch]

E63 = noise and stress
Taycan = peace, comfort, feeling relaxed after a long drive and even if you want to caress the E63 you will make sweet love to the Taycan

 

[Ross]

As an economist, I have to admit that my use of "trivial" is not a strictly defined financial term.
However, unless the theoretically contemplated used 4S CT is a high-mileage lightly optioned private seller listing and the to-be-sold AMG wagon is a garage queen that generates a bidding war at BaT, I'm doubtful as to the significance of the off-setting effect of the potential cost savings from charging vs fueling.

As for what people really mean when they claim that EV recharging costs "nothing" -- many on-line posters have meant that literally, usually via an incorrect understanding of net metering, but, far more rarely, quite correctly when they do have excess solar production that can't be sold back to the grid.

Personally, we have solar, but we also have net metering, so the solar has zero impact on our EV charging costs (which are about a 1/3 of comparable ICE models, but those annual savings are probably less than the local property tax bill I received last week for our CT and i4).

Genuinely interested - How much does 20,000 in an 11 mpg car cost in the U S of A?
And how much do you reckon for the Taycan home charging?
I know that EA is not perfect but I could put up with a lot of sh*t for those FREE electrons,
so to me road tripping in USA a Taycan would be free.

As far as 'online posters' go, I am comfortable with the people saying charging if 'free' in an EV as they are a lot closer to the truth than the disingenuous and outright liars on You Tube in the UK who say the cost of fueling a Taycan is more than an ICE vehicle.
These idiots, the prime idiot being McMaster, play to the pre conceived prejudices of their moron acolytes and subscribers by:

1) Ignoring home charging
2)Ignoring the 30p discount charging
3)Ignoring complimentary charging
4) Finding a ridiculous 80p charging rate charge point then working out the cost as if the entire electricty consumption will be at 80p which could cost more than an ICE vehicle.
(Still not as bad as an 11 mpg ICE vehicle!)

 

[agurkas]

As an economist, I have to admit that my use of "trivial" is not a strictly defined financial term.
However, unless the theoretically contemplated used 4S CT is a high-mileage lightly optioned private seller listing and the to-be-sold AMG wagon is a garage queen that generates a bidding war at BaT, I'm doubtful as to the significance of the off-setting effect of the potential cost savings from charging vs fueling.

As for what people really mean when they claim that EV recharging costs "nothing" -- many on-line posters have meant that literally, usually via an incorrect understanding of net metering, but, far more rarely, quite correctly when they do have excess solar production that can't be sold back to the grid.

Personally, we have solar, but we also have net metering, so the solar has zero impact on our EV charging costs (which are about a 1/3 of comparable ICE models, but those annual savings are probably less than the local property tax bill I received last week for our CT and i4).

True price war for this wagon would be on Cars&Bids. Doug Demuro singlehandedly made AMG wagons hot again

 

[agurkas]

While younger me would say, I would have a very hard time parting ways with E63S Wagon (because they are ideal ICEs in my head)... after going full EV, I just do not miss ICE. And this comes from a guy who would replace CAT-back before the new car hit 1st 500 miles. I was intoxicated by Jag's exhaust pops. Etc. Somehow I don't miss it at all. Frankly, I started noticing how obnoxious it is when I can hear some dude coming my way blocks away. I used to be that dude...

How if space is important, I would struggle with CT. We have XC90 for longer trips or when I need to load a bunch of stuff. Taycan is a fun family car... it is not a practical family car (if you are 2+2)

 

[Brembo]

Thank you all for the wonderful discussion!

Conclusion First: At the end of the day they will cost approximately the same amount or close enough where it won't matter over the next 3 years. I should get whichever car puts a bigger smile on my face more often.

As you are all enthusiasts you can guess where the car will soon be listed. If it meets the reserve for the auction then I'll swap, if it doesn't, then I'll keep it!

--

Current cost for fuel in my area of LA for premium is about $5.50. At 11mpg average it costs me about $0.50 per mile to drive the E63S.

I currently own 3 EVs and can (I believe) confidently describe my economics of owning of an EV. My average price per kWh charging at home is approximately $0.25. Assuming an efficiency of about 0.4wH/mi we yield 2.5 miles per kWh or about $0.10 per mile to drive an EV if I charge at home.

I accept that the cost of DC fast charging is significantly more but I do not expect to need or use those services often.

So, if we assume 10,000 miles per year, the E63S will cost $5000 in fuel while the Taycan will cost $1000. Note: fuel prices in Los Angeles vary A LOT depending on the weather and the global fuel price, we seen $7/gallon in our area.

Questions I am still trying to determine an answer to is the (1) cost of depreciation, (2) repairs / maintenance and (2) the cost of insurance.

Of those costs the only one that is hard to model is the cost of depreciation. I personally believe that by midyear I should be able to find a 'nice' 4S CT CPO for $90-$100k and in 3 years it would be worth significantly less (let's say $50k for the sake of argument). An additional $50k depreciation or cost of ownership.

The E63S would probably depreciate ~$35k over the same period versus ~$50k for the Taycan. I think the E63S will depreciate less because of how limited/rare it is and how it is the last of its breed versus the newer/better Taycans.

 

[Horizontally Opposed]

^ Wow, nice deal! I was in touch with them last year about a couple used CT listings. Ended up not having exactly the options I wanted, but the sales person was nice to interact with via email (which is more than I can say for many other Porsche dealers).

It was a great deal, but this is slippery. One way or the other you are getting hosed. (And I willingly went along.)
Although the money factor was competitive, the residual on a 39/12 was 52%!

I commented on that to the finance guy, and he said if I were leasing a Macan (ice) it would be 65%.

So my payment is buying that extra depreciation and I am an aware shopper.

But if I had an E63 wagon I don’t think I would be motivated to get a Taycan.

 

[Brembo]

It was a great deal, but this is slippery. One way or the other you are getting hosed. (And I willingly went along.)
Although the money factor was competitive, the residual on a 39/12 was 52%!

I commented on that to the finance guy, and he said if I were leasing a Macan (ice) it would be 65%.

So my payment is buying that extra depreciation and I am an aware shopper.

But if I had an E63 wagon I don’t think I would be motivated to get a Taycan.

I agree 100% with the 'I am an aware shopper' mindset. I know what I'm getting myself into and I am still choosing to do it!

 

[Jonathan S.]

Genuinely interested - How much does 20,000 in an 11 mpg car cost in the U S of A?
And how much do you reckon for the Taycan home charging?
I know that EA is not perfect but I could put up with a lot of sh*t for those FREE electrons,
so to me road tripping in USA a Taycan would be free. [...]

U.S. ICE fueing, look in the 3rd column here for Premium:
https://gasprices.aaa.com/state-gas-price-averages/
... and yes, California really is that much higher.

EV home charging, varies so much even within a region.
For example, Amherst MA, $0.37/kWh.
Burlington VT (my wife's brother), the current EV charging rate is $0.089/kWh: https://www.burlingtonelectric.com/evrate ... so long as you *never* charge from noon to 10pm (which apparently would void all such special savings for the entire month).
For EV one-time purchase and installation costs, also varies enormously by location (besides the federal tax deduction). I got $700 last year in MA. Looks like for the soon-to-be-acquired ski house in NH I get ... nothing. (Unless Porsche pays for my Tesla Universal Wall Charger as the substitute for their flawed mobile EVSE.)

EA unlimited free 30-minute sessions (with approximately 3-second time in between sessions), that's exactly what I thought at first -- just do work on my laptop, what's the rush?
After a few such episodes of that frustration, I happily paid ~$0.50/kWh for Magic Docks instead (Brewster NY & Enfield CT).

 

[Jonathan S.]

Can the M5 Touring be added to the vote choices?

Cons:

1. Does not exist yet.
2. Even once it does exist, U.S. availability is not assured.
3. Obviously not inexpensive (either to acquire, or to maintain once out of warranty, given that you have two complex drivetrains to go wrong).

Pros:

1. Although the EV part of the hybrid drivetrain is optimized for performance not EV-only range, you won't feel bad about 11mpg around town like you currently do with your AMG.
2. Interior space for both passengers and cargo is probably much more like your current wagon than the CT.
3. Pretty much everything else too.

 

[Brembo]

Can the M5 Touring be added to the vote choices?

Cons:

1. Does not exist yet.
2. Even once it does exist, U.S. availability is not assured.
3. Obviously not inexpensive (either to acquire, or to maintain once out of warranty, given that you have two complex drivetrains to go wrong).

Pros:

1. Although the EV part of the hybrid drivetrain is optimized for performance not EV-only range, you won't feel bad about 11mpg around town like you currently do with your AMG.
2. Interior space for both passengers and cargo is probably much more like your current wagon than the CT.
3. Pretty much everything else too.

Ha! One of my close friends just picked up the XM which I believe shares the same powertrain as the M5 Touring. It's a really unique vehicle and is eligible for the California HOV sticker while still being a 'muscle' car.

In my case, I don't think the M5 Touring is worth considering simply because if/when it comes to the US it will be selling >$200k with all the ADM we can expect on such a rare and new vehicle.

 

[Ross]

U.S. ICE fueing, look in the 3rd column here for Premium:
https://gasprices.aaa.com/state-gas-price-averages/
... and yes, California really is that much higher.

EV home charging, varies so much even within a region.
For example, Amherst MA, $0.37/kWh.
Burlington VT (my wife's brother), the current EV charging rate is $0.089/kWh: https://www.burlingtonelectric.com/evrate ... so long as you *never* charge from noon to 10pm (which apparently would void all such special savings for the entire month).
For EV one-time purchase and installation costs, also varies enormously by location (besides the federal tax deduction). I got $700 last year in MA. Looks like for the soon-to-be-acquired ski house in NH I get ... nothing. (Unless Porsche pays for my Tesla Universal Wall Charger as the substitute for their flawed mobile EVSE.)

EA unlimited free 30-minute sessions (with approximately 3-second time in between sessions), that's exactly what I thought at first -- just do work on my laptop, what's the rush?
After a few such episodes of that frustration, I happily paid ~$0.50/kWh for Magic Docks instead (Brewster NY & Enfield CT).

Thank you
Fuel 3x the price in Uk
(2x California!)
Electricity same or cheaper.
Tax benefits for EVs huge.
Definitely more of a differential in UK

 

[Jonathan S.]

^ And while we're discussing U.S. EV tax benefits, for initial acquisition price:

• All EV leases (regardless of ... anything) qualify for a $7,500 federal tax credit, but this goes to the car manufacturer financial services subsidiary, although it is usually -- but not always -- effectively passed through to the lessee (from the lessor) via various promotional lease discounts.
• Some EV purchases can qualify for a $7,500 federal tax credit based on ... far too many factors to summarize here.
• EV purchases can qualify for various state tax incentives, e.g., no 6.626% sales tax in NJ.

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