Taycan 4S tuning - hypothetically

[Gubbjaevel]

Gents,

I know it isn't going to happen this year, but perhaps next?

Facts (ish):
1) 4S+ has 490hp constant, 570hp on Launch control for a few seconds.
2) T has 625 hp constant, 680 hp on Launch control for a few seconds.

Assumptions:
1 ) The wiring will be the same for all cars (4S, T, TS). This means the diameter of the conductors. This means the same potential energy transfer within the conductors.
2) The cooling system will be the same for all cars (4S, T, TS). That means the diameter of pipes, size and efficiency of the circulation pumps etc. Same amount of cooling efficiency.
3) The cooling system will be able to override and reduce the effect of the motors, should it need to. (to prevent overheating).

Hypothesis:
4S could (easily) be tuned to deliver max (570hp) constantly, seeing as Turbo can deliver 625hp constantly.
This without endanger any internal parts.
T+TS could probably be tuned as well, but there you would be more into unknown territory when it comes to parts breaking, system overheating etc.

Does it make sense?
Have I missed something?

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[PerPower]

Gents,

I know it isn't going to happen this year, but perhaps next?

Facts (ish):
1) 4S+ has 490hp constant, 570hp on Launch control for a few seconds.
2) T has 625 hp constant, 680 hp on Launch control for a few seconds.

Assumptions:
1 ) The wiring will be the same for all cars (4S, T, TS). This means the diameter of the conductors. This means the same potential energy transfer within the conductors.
2) The cooling system will be the same for all cars (4S, T, TS). That means the diameter of pipes, size and efficiency of the circulation pumps etc. Same amount of cooling efficiency.
3) The cooling system will be able to override and reduce the effect of the motors, should it need to. (to prevent overheating).

Hypothesis:
4S could (easily) be tuned to deliver max (570hp) constantly, seeing as Turbo can deliver 625hp constantly.
This without endanger any internal parts.
T+TS could probably be tuned as well, but there you would be more into unknown territory when it comes to parts breaking, system overheating etc.

Does it make sense?
Have I missed something?

Remember that the Turbo and Turbo S has a bigger rear drive-unit with more power available.

The bigger rear drive-unit also makes these versions around 80 kg heavier than the 4S with the big battery.

But Tesla has several times optimized the software regarding performance via OTA, so I assume that it is possible that Porsche could do the same on the Taycans. But might just be small improvements though they are also more than welcome

 

[louv]

What exactly do you expect to “tune”?

Are you going to swap in the electronics of a Turbo or Turbo S?

Are you expecting that the only difference is a few config values?

Do you have access to the part catalog to see what parts are different?

 

[Gubbjaevel]

Remember that the Turbo and Turbo S has a bigger rear drive-unit with more power available.

Yes, absolutely. As for this hypothetical discussion, I therefore limited the max effect to that of 570 which is the max effect of the 4S motors combined already. Might be a potential to tune them further, but that's at least beyone the scope of this discussion.

Are you going to swap in the electronics of a Turbo or Turbo S?
Are you expecting that the only difference is a few config values?
Do you have access to the part catalog to see what parts are different?

Good. Love it. Let's get discussions going!
1) No swapping of electronics.
2) That's a simplified way of saying it - yes. Just like an ICE engine, there is a "map" of power - taking in account a shitload of variables - current/desired speed, throttle position, battery temperature etc. (And for ICE even more - outside temp, turbo intake temp, exhaust temp, timing, turbo pressure etc etc). I expect this "map" can be altered - absolutely. I expect that map has been tried and tested a multitude of times and on a multitude of vehicles before it is being released. I expect only 5-10 companies worldwide would have the competence, experience, knowledge and skills to do this.
3) Nope. Therefore "assumptions".

Elaborations on the assumptions:
When designing products - you would set a maximum expected value (be it pressure, temperature, current flow etc). This value would be multiplied with X (let's for arguments sake say 1.5) to ensure product sustainability and prevent failures.

(In my line of work, a normal pressure test of a piece of safety equipment is done to 1000bar/15000psi. When it is manufactured - it is verified tested to a pressure of 1500bar/22500psi by the manufacturer - to ensure it would never fail on the "lower" value - which is the highest allowable operating pressure.)

Since the difference in maximum effect between the different models are, comparatively, small - I therefore assume the wiring, cooling would be the same for all. A parts catalogue would of course help to either verify or deny that assumption. Do you have access to one?

 

[Tay Tay]

I'm less greedy. I'd be happy just getting the 562 hp for 2 seconds during normal driving. Anyone know why Porsche would limit it to just launch control?

 

[okkotonushi]

I think due to battery reason for longer distances

 

[RG2020]

I expect someone might tell me that the larger motors operate more efficiently and therefore this quick comparison is flawed.

Per the Taycan website (and I know these range figures are hypothetical), all cars with the 93KwH battery and all with the same assumptions including wheels, the range for the base Taycan is 214 and drops to 206 for the Turbo S.

So with the same size battery, the Turbo and Turbo S produce 625PS at all times, the 4S+ 490 at all times, does this mean that by producing up to 570 at all times would only reduce the total range by a tiny amount. Or is the logic that larger motors can produce power more efficiently?

 

[NC_Taycan]

I don't know but if I assume that the Turbo and Turbo S use the same motors then the difference in overboost could be software. Or it could be capacitors. Or cabling or cooling to handle higher heat for a little longer. Increasing the sustained output from non-overboost to match overboost would involve increased heat and stress. The car may not be able to handle it. But such is the risk of any tuning!

 

[Gubbjaevel]

I expect someone might tell me that the larger motors operate more efficiently and therefore this quick comparison is flawed.

So with the same size battery, the Turbo and Turbo S produce 625PS at all times, the 4S+ 490 at all times, does this mean that by producing up to 570 at all times would only reduce the total range by a tiny amount. Or is the logic that larger motors can produce power more efficiently?

You expect someone to say something, and therefore my arguments are flawed? Interesting. Let's see someone say something first, ey? The efficiency of the motor does not depend on the size. Change my mind.

The more power you produce the more energy is required. This is 1+1=2... no?

So if your point was that should any potential be unlocked, then the range will be affected.. then.. yes.... I don't disagree with that... but also... That's a given... If your point was something else... I missed it...

I believe the T and TS have different parts (front inverter is bigger on TS, if I'm not mistaken).
However for the scope of this thread, I was only talking about untapped potential of the 4S.

 

[RG2020]

You expect someone to say something, and therefore my arguments are flawed? Interesting. Let's see someone say something first, ey? The efficiency of the motor does not depend on the size. Change my mind.

The more power you produce the more energy is required. This is 1+1=2... no?

So if your point was that should any potential be unlocked, then the range will be affected.. then.. yes.... I don't disagree with that... but also... That's a given... If your point was something else... I missed it...

I believe the T and TS have different parts (front inverter is bigger on TS, if I'm not mistaken).
However for the scope of this thread, I was only talking about untapped potential of the 4S.

I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick with my post.

I have very little knowledge on this subject but am interested and had an idea. So I was firstly saying that according to the Taycan website, all cars with the same battery size but all producing different peak power, only show a very small variation in range. So on the face of it by unlocking the extra power given in launch mode, it seems like the range would be only affected by less than 5 miles.

But I did think my logic could be flawed, due to my lack of knowledge. That being that a larger motor may or may not (I don’t know but I’m betting someone on here does) produce power more efficiently. This quick comparison comment refers to the quick comparison I did on the website.

So I’m not at all trying to discredit your idea by saying that someone is going to say something to prove it’s flawed!

 

[faroutinNM]

To get the additional power, it requires the car to handle more current (since the voltages are around 800v into the inverters of both models). The wiring might be the same, but the inverters will need to handle more power (thus, current). The inverter's capability might be the Achilles' heel of the tuned 4S.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[Gubbjaevel]

I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick with my post.

Yup, certainly did. Misunderstood an almost impressive 100% Thanks for clearing up, and then I agree with you

To get the additional power, it requires the car to handle more current (since the voltages are around 800v into the inverters of both models). The wiring might be the same, but the inverters will need to handle more power (thus, current). The inverter's capability might be the Achilles' heel of the tuned 4S. Just throwing that out there.

Yep, the inverter might be a bottleneck to achieve more power. But remember it already accommodates for the +80hp during LC, so it is absolutely rated for that draw (current). Then the issue might be cooling, and we go back to square/post 1 of this thread. Don't think cooling would be an issue.

 

[Rob28]

The new GTS is said to have the same motors as the Turbo or Turbo S, Is it then hypothetically possible to 'alter/tune/hack/upgrade' (whatever you want to call it) the software and unlock the same power as the Turbo S in the GTS?

 

[Jhenson29]

I’m surprised they don’t allow the overboost during normal driving. It could have been implemented with a sport response button and bundled with sport chrono like in the 992 PDK. Maybe the allowed continuous duration is too short to make it useful. Maybe it would just get a lot of complaints about the time limit.

 

[Gwaihir]

I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick with my post.

I have very little knowledge on this subject but am interested and had an idea. So I was firstly saying that according to the Taycan website, all cars with the same battery size but all producing different peak power, only show a very small variation in range. So on the face of it by unlocking the extra power given in launch mode, it seems like the range would be only affected by less than 5 miles.

But I did think my logic could be flawed, due to my lack of knowledge. That being that a larger motor may or may not (I don’t know but I’m betting someone on here does) produce power more efficiently. This quick comparison comment refers to the quick comparison I did on the website.

So I’m not at all trying to discredit your idea by saying that someone is going to say something to prove it’s flawed!

I would think, if any of the Taycan models had potential for spare performance it’s the GTS. Having the Turbo motor fitted it must be a de-tune by Porsche to be inline with the 4S & Turbo. All we will need is a software hack and it will be Turbo performance. Maybe? Assuming the software is stable enough to hack.

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