Taycan real world Range

Ron R

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A couple comments from reading the thread:

- I've been driving an EV as my daily commuter car and one thing I didn't expect was how much of a difference in range you see depending on not only how hard you drive it, but even more the air temperature and use of the climate control (heat and A/C). AAA did a study published early this year on this exact topic:

https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Electric-Vehicle-Range-Testing-Report.pdf

While some may quibble with the numbers, keep this in mind regarding range. And one thing to note: I believe the Taycan is going to offer an optional heat pump, which will help minimize the range reduction while using the heater.

- While Tesla has brought some interesting tech to the table, the comments that their batteries and motor technology are X number of years ahead of Porsche is nonsense. Probably comes from some of the pro-Tesla websites (insideevs and electrek come to mind) that don't provide a balanced view of the EV players. Porsche has been at the forefront of automotive engineering for many years now, developing different technology for other automotive manufacturers, and while EV technology is certainly a switch from ICE, their racing and passenger car efforts (919 Hybrid or 918 Spyder, for example) have taught them a lot. And owning a minority stake in Rimac can't hurt. If you disagree with this, you're always welcome to buy something from Tesla if you believe their technology is superior.
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charliemathilde

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A couple comments from reading the thread:

- I've been driving an EV as my daily commuter car and one thing I didn't expect was how much of a difference in range you see depending on not only how hard you drive it, but even more the air temperature and use of the climate control (heat and A/C). AAA did a study published early this year on this exact topic:

https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Electric-Vehicle-Range-Testing-Report.pdf

While some may quibble with the numbers, keep this in mind regarding range. And one thing to note: I believe the Taycan is going to offer an optional heat pump, which will help minimize the range reduction while using the heater.

- While Tesla has brought some interesting tech to the table, the comments that their batteries and motor technology are X number of years ahead of Porsche is nonsense. Probably comes from some of the pro-Tesla websites (insideevs and electrek come to mind) that don't provide a balanced view of the EV players. Porsche has been at the forefront of automotive engineering for many years now, developing different technology for other automotive manufacturers, and while EV technology is certainly a switch from ICE, their racing and passenger car efforts (919 Hybrid or 918 Spyder, for example) have taught them a lot. And owning a minority stake in Rimac can't hurt. If you disagree with this, you're always welcome to buy something from Tesla if you believe their technology is superior.
tesla’s batteries and range are years ahead. They cost less to manufacture and provide more range. No other EVs have the same range at the same price points. The Model 3 is an exceptional piece of engineering. Even the best case estimates for the Taycan are lower ranges than the 75kW model 3. The Taycan’s battery is 25% larger and will provide much shorter ranges than a model 3. For the similarly sized model S battery pack, it’s range will be 25-33% less.

I haven’t seen anything to suggest they have the same kind of lead on motors. The model 3 motors are much more efficient than the model S though (until 2019 model S which stole the model 3’s)
 

GyAkUsOu

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nope, j1 was codeveloped: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a25349648/audi-e-tron-gt-concept-porsche-taycan-shared-platform/

I suspect this is a mistake in a number of ways, and that Porsche will use a completely different platform for the next major rev.
Audi will use the J1-platform developed for the most part by Porsche for the e-tron GT. That car will be released in late 2020/early 2021.

Again, the J1-architecture and battery-tech etc has nothing to do with the current e-tron like you claimed in your first post.

Porsche and Audi will use a platform called PPE for their BEVs going forward (2021+).
 

PAG_J1

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nope, j1 was codeveloped: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a25349648/audi-e-tron-gt-concept-porsche-taycan-shared-platform/

I suspect this is a mistake in a number of ways, and that Porsche will use a completely different platform for the next major rev.
There is a new rule inside the VW group (which Porsche AG belongs to) that from now on every new model and new model version (besides facelifts) has to be build from a car plattform, which is used at least once from another OEM within the VW group.
For example PAG is still searching for another OEM to share their next generation models of Cayman and Boxster...otherwise they could be abandoned.
 


Ron R

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tesla’s batteries and range are years ahead. They cost less to manufacture and provide more range. No other EVs have the same range at the same price points. The Model 3 is an exceptional piece of engineering. Even the best case estimates for the Taycan are lower ranges than the 75kW model 3. The Taycan’s battery is 25% larger and will provide much shorter ranges than a model 3. For the similarly sized model S battery pack, it’s range will be 25-33% less.

I haven’t seen anything to suggest they have the same kind of lead on motors. The model 3 motors are much more efficient than the model S though (until 2019 model S which stole the model 3’s)
As I said, "year's ahead" is Tesla fanboy FUD. You can believe what you want.

I got a ride in a Model 3P last year and while I was impressed with the acceleration, there is no way I could have lived with the quality. While I didn't like the fit and finish, I was particularly shocked at the paint job. It's possible I just saw a particularly bad example, but I did see a couple regular Model 3's recently at a Tesla store and things didn't look much better.

I don't believe Porsche's end goal was the same as Tesla's regarding battery life. The Taycan is a driver's car. Assuming the 25-33% figure you quoted for range reduction over a Model S is accurate, I'm not sure the vast majority of potential owner's really care. I believe the rate at which the car can be charged at is more important then the total distance it can go per charge. One advantage Tesla does have currently is their charging network, but as time goes by more and CCS chargers are coming on-line so I think this is less of an issue over time.

None of us really know what the Taycan's actual range will be at this point. Anything people claim is really total speculation until Porsche officially discusses this on September 4th.
 

Doran

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Where does this come from, the model 3 is rated at 240 and 310, how is the Taycan best estimates less than this. It may or may not be closer to the 240, but it just as well may be closer to the 310, we don’t know and we’ve heard rumors everywhere from 230-350.
 

charliemathilde

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As I said, "year's ahead" is Tesla fanboy FUD. You can believe what you want.

I got a ride in a Model 3P last year and while I was impressed with the acceleration, there is no way I could have lived with the quality. While I didn't like the fit and finish, I was particularly shocked at the paint job. It's possible I just saw a particularly bad example, but I did see a couple regular Model 3's recently at a Tesla store and things didn't look much better.

I don't believe Porsche's end goal was the same as Tesla's regarding battery life. The Taycan is a driver's car. Assuming the 25-33% figure you quoted for range reduction over a Model S is accurate, I'm not sure the vast majority of potential owner's really care. I believe the rate at which the car can be charged at is more important then the total distance it can go per charge. One advantage Tesla does have currently is their charging network, but as time goes by more and CCS chargers are coming on-line so I think this is less of an issue over time.

None of us really know what the Taycan's actual range will be at this point. Anything people claim is really total speculation until Porsche officially discusses this on September 4th.
the largest model 3 battery is 75kW, and the taycan 96kW. Math is not a Tesla fan boy.
 


charliemathilde

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There is a new rule inside the VW group (which Porsche AG belongs to) that from now on every new model and new model version (besides facelifts) has to be build from a car plattform, which is used at least once from another OEM within the VW group.
For example PAG is still searching for another OEM to share their next generation models of Cayman and Boxster...otherwise they could be abandoned.
thanks for that tidbit. I don’t agree with it, but I get it makes sense for cost and capital investment
 

dennis

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While Tesla has brought some interesting tech to the table, the comments that their batteries and motor technology are X number of years ahead of Porsche is nonsense. Probably comes from some of the pro-Tesla websites (insideevs and electrek come to mind) that don't provide a balanced view of the EV players. Porsche has been at the forefront of automotive engineering for many years now, developing different technology for other automotive manufacturers, and while EV technology is certainly a switch from ICE, their racing and passenger car efforts (919 Hybrid or 918 Spyder, for example) have taught them a lot. And owning a minority stake in Rimac can't hurt. If you disagree with this, you're always welcome to buy something from Tesla if you believe their technology is superior.
Well you may consider it nonsense, but let's look at the facts. Tesla is on their 3rd or 4th generation depending on how you count in the following BEV drivetrain components:
- battery cells, modules, and cooling
- electric motors
- inverters
Each succeeding generation has shown more efficiency.

In contrast, Porsche is producing its first BEV. Both the 918 road car and 919 race car are hybrids. Yes they use batteries but the application and requirements are quite different from a road-going BEV. It's not a coincidence that with all of the announced and delivered "Tesla killers" from other manufacturers, no BEV has yet equaled the 265 miles of EPA range of the 2012 Tesla Model S 85. There is a learning curve with every new technology, and it takes time and iterative engineering to drive down that learning curve.

I believe the Taycan will be a great car. My concern as a deposit holder is the value for money equation. The interior and cargo space of the Taycan will be about the same as the Tesla Model 3, not the Model S. Straight line performance at 3.2 seconds is the same as the Model 3 Performance. Taycan range is very likely to be less than the 310 miles (EPA) of the Model 3. I know the Taycan will offer better vehicle dynamics and a more luxurious interior. It will also offer some exclusivity compared to the seeming ubiquity of Model 3. But is that worth a $40K-$80K price premium over the $55K Model 3 Performance? The Taycan will have to be really, really good to justify that IMO.
 

AlphaG

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Well you may consider it nonsense, but let's look at the facts. Tesla is on their 3rd or 4th generation depending on how you count in the following BEV drivetrain components:
- battery cells, modules, and cooling
- electric motors
- inverters
Each succeeding generation has shown more efficiency.

In contrast, Porsche is producing its first BEV. Both the 918 road car and 919 race car are hybrids. Yes they use batteries but the application and requirements are quite different from a road-going BEV. It's not a coincidence that with all of the announced and delivered "Tesla killers" from other manufacturers, no BEV has yet equaled the 265 miles of EPA range of the 2012 Tesla Model S 85. There is a learning curve with every new technology, and it takes time and iterative engineering to drive down that learning curve.

I believe the Taycan will be a great car. My concern as a deposit holder is the value for money equation. The interior and cargo space of the Taycan will be about the same as the Tesla Model 3, not the Model S. Straight line performance at 3.2 seconds is the same as the Model 3 Performance. Taycan range is very likely to be less than the 310 miles (EPA) of the Model 3. I know the Taycan will offer better vehicle dynamics and a more luxurious interior. It will also offer some exclusivity compared to the seeming ubiquity of Model 3. But is that worth a $40K-$80K price premium over the $55K Model 3 Performance? The Taycan will have to be really, really good to justify that IMO.
This doesn’t make any practical sense. Why would Porsche today have to start from square one again in regards to battery technology? They don’t, of course, and I doubt that they will. Pouch and prismatic cells are in fact state of the art designs, and newer than cylindrical cells. Of course there are always potential trade-offs, but we will need to have details before passing judgment right? The Taycan details are yet to be released!
 

dennis

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Where does this come from, the model 3 is rated at 240 and 310, how is the Taycan best estimates less than this. It may or may not be closer to the 240, but it just as well may be closer to the 310, we don’t know and we’ve heard rumors everywhere from 230-350.
It's important when comparing range numbers that it is an apples-to-apples comparison. There are 3 "standards" for comparing range, two European (NEDC and WLTP) and one US (EPA).

NEDC is the least stringent and therefore gives the highest numbers. EPA is the most stringent and gives the lowest numbers. WLTP is in between. The 240/310 numbers for Model 3 are EPA. The 311 mile/500 km goal Porsche put out early on was NEDC. That's apples-to-oranges. According to this article to convert NEDC to EPA you divide by 1.43. That yields 217 miles of EPA range. Of course we won't know until Porsche makes an official announcement.
 

dennis

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This doesn’t make any practical sense. Why would Porsche today have to start from square one again in regards to battery technology? They don’t, of course, and I doubt that they will. Pouch and prismatic cells are in fact state of the art designs, and newer than cylindrical cells. Of course there are always potential trade-offs, but we will need to have details before passing judgment right? The Taycan details are yet to be released!
The Audi e-tron and Jaguar I-Pace are using the latest pouch/prismatic cells. They have 95 kWh and 90 kWh batteries respectively. The e-tron has an EPA range of 204 miles. The iPace range is 234 miles. Both source their cells from LG Chem, as does Porsche. Is LG Chem reserving some super duper cells just for Porsche and withholding them from stablemate Audi? I doubt it.

Battery cell chemistry and battery capacity are not the sole determinants of range. Motor efficiency, inverter efficiency, curb weight and aerodynamics play a very big role. Hopefully Porsche will be better than Audi and Jaguar in all of these metrics and show superior range. But to expect them to best Tesla with their first BEV effort is not in the cards IMO.

Incidently, while the pouch/prismatic form factor may be newer than cylindrical, the energy density of Tesla's NCA chemistry is superior to the NMC chemistry used by the others. The downside is that it requires a much more sophisticated Battery Management System, including cooling, to mitigate the risks of the more volatile NCA chemistry. So it is easier for an OEM to build battery packs with NMC pouch cells but they give up some energy density.
 

daveo4EV

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from the release photos of the Taycan interior …

the display @ 286 km @ 75% battery - yields a calculation of 381 km or 236.742 miles @ 100 % - which is disappointment for Taycan's range…vs Model S or model 3 - that's barely more range than the Model 3 SR, and a lot less range than the Model 3 LR and the Model S at 350 miles range…

90 kWh battery @ 236 miles = 381 wh/mile or 2.62 miles/kWh - that's about equal to my Model X efficiency - actually my Model X gets like 361 wh/mile - hmmmmm this is disappointing and establishes a trend for the German EV's - so far none of them come close to Tesla on efficiency (iPace, eTron, and now the Taycan)…and yet this forum is full of people saying Tesla has nothing on the established automakers…

I'm hoping for a rendering error or just place holder graphics…but if it's actually 236 miles range (which the display indicates) that's going to be very disappointing and make me consider not purchasing one…
 

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The Audi e-tron and Jaguar I-Pace are using the latest pouch/prismatic cells. They have 95 kWh and 90 kWh batteries respectively. The e-tron has an EPA range of 204 miles. The iPace range is 234 miles. Both source their cells from LG Chem, as does Porsche. Is LG Chem reserving some super duper cells just for Porsche and withholding them from stablemate Audi? I doubt it.

Battery cell chemistry and battery capacity are not the sole determinants of range. Motor efficiency, inverter efficiency, curb weight and aerodynamics play a very big role. Hopefully Porsche will be better than Audi and Jaguar in all of these metrics and show superior range. But to expect them to best Tesla with their first BEV effort is not in the cards IMO.

Incidently, while the pouch/prismatic form factor may be newer than cylindrical, the energy density of Tesla's NCA chemistry is superior to the NMC chemistry used by the others. The downside is that it requires a much more sophisticated Battery Management System, including cooling, to mitigate the risks of the more volatile NCA chemistry. So it is easier for an OEM to build battery packs with NMC pouch cells but they give up some energy density.
All this. there are a number of sources that go into this with more details. Sorry I don’t have them on hand. But basically we already know the taycan will be around the iPace, +/- a bit. Same batteries from same source in same config at similar sizes. The Model 3 batteries are significantly better than LG Chem’s. That’s just how it is in 2019. I expect the technology will change very rapidly over the next few years.
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