GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design)

[daveo4EV]

That was already known, since MagicDoc runs though the NACS connector, meaning Tesla superchargers with MagicDock run CCS communications through NACS.

That said, nothing in CCS protocols facilitates multiplexing power pins for AC/DC usage, so at least this part of session initiation has to be Tesla protocol, possibly could be added to ISO15118.

it does not require any tesla protocol - a CCS vehicle is going to "talk" to the EVSE (AC or DC) and if it's a CCS station it won't 'answer' the analog J-1772 "handshake" and the vehicle will then try a CCS handshake - or vice versa…

I doubt you need a Tesla protocol to do this -since J-1772 is analog and CCS is digital…either one communication method works or the other one works - never both at once…

Taycan already does something like this for it's usage of PLC/ISO vs. "pure J-1772" - it's the only reason you get charging status on the LCD display of a PMCC in North America - that sort of meta-data isn't part of the J-1772 AC charging standard…

what will be "added" to the standard probably is what a handshake from a pure Supercharger session looks like - so that vehicle's can just "ignore" that and restart the negotiation with a CCS/J-1772/ISO/DIN/PLC handshake...while the PIN's can be multi plexed - their intended usage never changes during a charging session once the vehicle/EVSe have "locked" in and communicated with each other…

yes NACS allows the high voltage PINS to be multiplexed, but not during an established charging session - even Tesla doesn't swap them once "plugged" in - AC vs. DC usage is determined and "locked" very very early after plug-insertion…and doesn't change until the plug is removed and reinserted.

it will all come down to the handshake…it won't be "negotiated" it will be determined by which type of station the vehicle recognizes.

NACS vehicle's will simply be able to "recognize" multiple different types of charging session handshakes and select the "best" one for the circumstance - and it may have to try more than one to "lock into" what type of station it's talking to.

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[whitex]

it does not require any tesla protocol - a CCS vehicle is going to "talk" to the EVSE (AC or DC) and if it's a CCS station it won't 'answer' the analog J-1772 "handshake" and the vehicle will then try a CCS handshake - or vice versa…

I doubt you need a Tesla protocol to do this -since J-1772 is analog and CCS is digital…either one communication method works or the other one works - never both at once…

Taycan already does something like this for it's usage of PLC/ISO vs. "pure J-1772" - it's the only reason you get charging status on the LCD display of a PMCC in North America - that sort of meta-data isn't part of the J-1772 AC charging standard…

what will be "added" to the standard probably is what a handshake from a pure Supercharger session looks like - so that vehicle's can just "ignore" that and restart the negotiation with a CCS/J-1772/ISO/DIN/PLC handshake...while the PIN's can be multi plexed - their intended usage never changes during a charging session once the vehicle/EVSe have "locked" in and communicated with each other…

yes NACS allows the high voltage PINS to be multiplexed, but not during an established charging session - even Tesla doesn't swap them once "plugged" in - AC vs. DC usage is determined and "locked" very very early after plug-insertion…and doesn't change until the plug is removed and reinserted.

it will all come down to the handshake…it won't be "negotiated" it will be determined by which type of station the vehicle recognizes.

NACS vehicle's will simply be able to "recognize" multiple different types of charging session handshakes and select the "best" one for the circumstance - and it may have to try more than one to "lock into" what type of station it's talking to.

All these workarounds you are describing are the things which will have to be somehow added to the spec. If just hardwire a NACKS socket in your Taycan today, I'm reasonably sure it will not just work, even though Porsche software follows the standard. To be honest, I think you'd likely damage something if you attempted a session with a supercharger which talks CCS over NACS - for one your Taycan AC pins would be exposed to 450V (CCS would negotiate 400V charging session) since AC and DC pins would have to be connected together.

Bottom line is I am not saying it's not possible, rather than the CCS protocol will need to be augmented to support NACS. Similar to why you cannot use Tesla CCS adapter on older Tesla cars which have had NACS since birth - Tesla added a way to switch between Tesla and CCS protocol, which is not supported by older cars.

 

[tigerbalm]

Rivian joins the party.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/39808...st-automaker-to-join-teslas-charging-standard

 

[daveo4EV]

Rivian joins the party.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/39808...st-automaker-to-join-teslas-charging-standard

actual eMail in my inbox this morning - I have a Rivian SUV on order (in case I want one) - I'm 90% certain I won't be completing the order - and so far have no estimated date - so it's an option but I'm unlikley to follow through - but here is the eMail discussing NACS - seems like CCS over NACS - and they discuss both types of adapters…NACS to CCS (existing for Tesla owners today) and CCS to NACS (exists in Magicdocks but so far not released independently)

 

[daveo4EV]

hmmm…not an actual annoucement but Hyundai may domino their way into this.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/hyundai-consider-joining-teslas-north-083549170.html

I find it "cute" that Stellantis thinks they matter…"they are considering it" - ummmm you guy's don't matter

https://fordauthority.com/2023/06/ford-rival-stellantis-looks-into-nacs-in-wake-of-tesla-deal/

Hyundai would be a big deal…

 

[daveo4EV]

Score card so far…NACS vehicle's

Announced/Confirmed

• Tesla
• Ford
• GM
• Rivian

Announced they are "considering it"

• Stellantis
• Hyundai

No Mention

• Nissan
• Mercedes
• Porsche
• VW
• Audi
• Polestar
• Volvo
• Kia
• Toyota
• Honda
• Fiat
• BMW
• Lucid

 

[tigerbalm]

The "adventure" network sounds exciting. I assume – "will it work, will I get stuck here" – is part of the adventure?

 

[daveo4EV]

The "adventure" network sounds exciting. I assume – "will it work, will I get stuck here" – is part of the adventure?

I'm a huge fan of "the idea" of Rivian - but in watching them "execute" I've gone from "fan" to OMG these guys are doomed but I'm still rooting for you - in the same way you root "for your team"" but know they have no chance at winning this season…I'm rooting for them, but believe they are on the road to failure/being bought out.

I've not owned their product
I've tested driven the SUV - I was not impressed, nor was I "put off"
I have an order - but do not expect to complete a purchase - I have no estimate production date

 

[daveo4EV]

$1 bet - BMW is the first German automaker to announce NACS plan, Volvo/Polestar next, Mercedes, and only after much pain and suffering VW/Audi/Porsche…

I have no time frame, but no sooner than mid-2024 - BMW could be sooner, but not "the other guys"…

like all prediction I could be wrong and probably am wrong - but I thought I'd put it in writing so people can laugh and point.

 

[mrogerc]

The "adventure" network sounds exciting. I assume – "will it work, will I get stuck here" – is part of the adventure?

As I understand, one idea behind the Rivian Adventure Network is to put chargers at locations near outdoor attractions. For example, the future map shows a charging station in northern Minnesota that appears to be close to a popular Boundary Waters entry area and (I hope!) a popular off-road park. A bit niche, but in support of the brand. I would be thrilled to be able to comfortably travel to an area that would have been iffy for my Model 3 due to the limited available charging.

It will be fascinating to watch how the vehicle charging service market develops. How many players will be nationwide? How many will serve niche markets? Who will cover deeply rural areas?

One thing I have noticed in my frequent trips to North Central Wisconsin (which has no fast charging options at this time) Is a surprising number of new gas stations being built. What the new stations have in common is they are on much larger (like 5X larger) lots than the stations they replaced. I have to wonder if the owners are trying to future proof their business by having space to accommodate future EV charging stations.

Anyway, as I said, it will be fascinating to see how this turns out, and which approaches become obvious in retrospect.

 

[tigerbalm]

As I understand, one idea behind the Rivian Adventure Network is to put chargers at locations near outdoor attractions

That makes sense – I thought it was their name for access to the Electrify America network.

 

[Tooney]

As I understand, one idea behind the Rivian Adventure Network is to put chargers at locations near outdoor attractions. For example, the future map shows a charging station in northern Minnesota that appears to be close to a popular Boundary Waters entry area and (I hope!) a popular off-road park. A bit niche, but in support of the brand. I would be thrilled to be able to comfortably travel to an area that would have been iffy for my Model 3 due to the limited available charging.

Need EV charging station near Boundary Waters, MN? Nah.
Pack on your back, canoe on your shoulders, and hike in.

 

[simcity]

I find it "cute" that Stellantis thinks they matter…"they are considering it" - ummmm you guy's don't matter

Stellantis are a veritable basket case, especially when it comes to BEVs, so it doesn't matter.

Hyundai would be a big deal…

It would indeed.

Do you guys get their 'luxury' brand, Genesis over there? Might sway it if their customers think they'll get a better charging experience on NACS/Tesla than CCS1...dunno.

 

[simcity]

$1 bet - BMW is the first German automaker to announce NACS plan, Volvo/Polestar next, Mercedes, and only after much pain and suffering VW/Audi/Porsche…

I'll see you on that bet ??

I reckon Polestar/Volvo will shift first as Geely aren't stupid and see the writing on the wall. What vested interest do they have in CCS-anything? None.

BMW are one the German-sway and will behave more like VAG/Porsche/Merc etc, they are more intertwined into the whole CCS thing. So I reckon they'll wait and wait a bit more.

 

[RAHRCR]

I suspect that a decision to “follow the herd” would be quite difficult for Porsche. They make more money per car than anyone on the planet by doing things a little differently. The US is the 2nd most important market for them….will be interesting to see their next move.

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