at what point do we stop apologizing for Porsche

[fgwinn]

....I am one step away from selling the car and moving on from the taycan which is a shame because if the car worked as advertised it could be a great car....

After less than one year of ownership I am already at that step. Unfortunately, I have doubts that my next EV (whatever it is) will be significantly better. Realistically, I don't have enough years left to purchase a car with the intention of keeping it long term (5 to 10 years). I have pretty much decided to try a different EV every year or two in pursuit of a car that can earn my brand loyalty. Not sure how much longer this will be the case, but the high trade-in value of my Taycan CT 4 makes it easier to move on to something else.

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[JimBob]

So @daveo4EV and @kort you’ve been around a long time and appear to not like the current situation. So what is your preferred alternative at this point in time? Do you have one? or are you just venting. What would you trade your Taycan for right here and now, and why? I am always looking to improve my position and would honestly like to know what alternatives are better.

 

[kreshi]

Just have not experienced any of those bullet points.

Same.

 

[Scotty]

this is from another thread - but I didn't want to derail that thread - I want to derail this thread

I understand this line of thinking but also I remember the vitrol with which people attack other car makers for not solving the whole problem?

the statement above is understandable and reasonable but at what point do we start admitting Porsche is behind in this game…

one of things that drew me to porsche was it's attention to detail and design into corners of automotive design that other "ignore" as "unnecessary"

but while I love my Taycan and consider it the best EV sports sedan on the market - albet at a price - so far after two years of ownership it only excels in Porsche's historical areas of excellence - and falls laughably short virtually all other dimensions that these days are required for automotive dominance

• software
  • in car behind the curve
  • app behind the curve
  • cloud based behind the curve
• OTA updates that take weeks to apply at a dealership and are far and few between - OTA here is also tongue and cheek - Porsche's notion of Over-the-Air (OTA) seems to be an eMail telling you to schedule your weeks long dealer visit to get the software.
• EVSE that's overheat and are now officially down rated due to design problems
• dealerships that are clueless regarding EV issues and deeply mislead customers
• factually my Taycan has personally spent more days in service in two year than all 6 of my Tesla's combined - Porsche quality vs. Tesla quality don't make me laugh
• fast charging network that is unreliable and a joke in North America
• numerous recalls
• complex charging software that takes a CS/EE degree to understand

now all of these issues have been discussed - and no one issue by itself is horrible - but we would all be laughing and pointing at this list of issues if it was happening to another car makers - but apparently because it's happening ot Porsche it's just fine and none of these issues are that bad

at what point do we stop apologizing for Porsche? These are serious issues, and if they don't get it together their build quality and mechanical engineering prowess will prove desperately insufficient over time and they will go down in stature - Porsche needs to start building competencies in some new areas otherwise this old school watch-maker stitch they have going on isn't going to carry the day.

they need to get serious about being the best at something other than stitching, steering feel, and brakes…cause I'm still taking my vehicle to the dealership and dropping it off for 2 weeks to received a software update that has color icons…my son's Tesla recieved two complete updates in the time my Taycan was at the dealership.

I expect better…and I'm having this thread so we can discuss if I'm alone in this.

friendly discussions only please ;-) but I believe these are issues worth wasting time on an internet forum about.

Many of your comments are spot on. However, i have discussed these issues with my service advisor and he told me porsche‘s focus is on how their cars drive and not software. Porsche‘s parent co recently fired their president and according to the news he was fired because of all the software problems with their cars The recent pcm update seems to have improved software. However it took 3 days at dealership for a simple update

 

[kort]

So @daveo4EV and @kort you’ve been around a long time and appear to not like the current situation. So what is your preferred alternative at this point in time? Do you have one? or are you just venting. What would you trade your Taycan for right here and now, and why? I am always looking to improve my position and would honestly like to know what alternatives are better.

I did not make promises that could not be kept. Porsche has a history of pushing cars out the door that were not properly built. at least the taycan issues aren't fatal like some of the boxsters and 911s were.
the issues, and tesla did the same, are issuing promises of features that cannot be delivered.
the updates that take days to complete, the lack of enough techs at the dealerships is concerning and I haven't, nor should I be put on the spot of how to fix them.
I buy a $100k plus car, I want the car to work as promised.

 

[kort]

Many of your comments are spot on. However, i have discussed these issues with my service advisor and he told me porsche‘s focus is on how their cars drive and not software. Porsche‘s parent co recently fired their president and according to the news he was fired because of all the software problems with their cars The recent pcm update seems to have improved software. However it took 3 days at dealership for a simple update

your service advisor is full of it, EVs, and cars as a whole are quite dependent on tech, and the tech is as important as a timing chain. if the tech fails, the car fails. so the priorities need to be moved towards getting the tech right. I think that the taycan wasn't ready but porsche felt a need to get an EV out there and they sent out an incomplete version of the car.
porsche mistakenly thought that they could easily correct any faults after the sale, tesla was notorious for shipping car for delivery with serious but correctable issues, they wanted to get cars out of the factory so the moved the cars to the delivery centers and had the service centers do the corrections there.

 

[Jhenson29]

issuing promises of features that cannot be delivered.

But did they pinky promise you?

@fullmetalbaal got that doc yet?

 

[BayAreaKen]

Sell the car Dave, instead of annoying people.

He's not annoying me. I took ownership of my MY'20 nearly 2 years ago today. I have had many of the issues on that list. My car stalled out in the middle of an intersection (that was scary as fuck) and limped to the the other side of the street. I had the software update recently. It took an entire week, but to be fair, not all of that was the update; a part had to be ordered as a light in the passenger door decided it didn't like staying in the door. Today I had a brand new warning message that said something about shifting the car into P before exiting. WTF?

I find the menu system cumbersome for sure, but I've grown used to it. I haven't upgraded the charger yet, but I don't use it everyday as I charge around the corner at an EA station, which as of 4 days ago started working without me having to use the app (nice!).

I suppose I could go on. I think the OP has a point about Porsche's attention to S/W. EV's are a different beast than an ICE. On an EV, software *IS* the car. We humans only interact with a very small portion of the software. The stuff "under the hood" so to speak keeps us alive and safe. If Porsche wants to maintain its brand as aspirational, then it needs to make the software better. Bullet proof would be nice, but that isn't really the nature of software.

I understood when I put myself on the waiting list for a Mission E in May of 2018, I would likely be buying a car with many headaches to come. In this regard, Porsche has not disappointed, LOL. But even with all the problems the OP mentioned and others that I've personally had, this is BY FAR the best car I've ever driven.

I love this car. If they came out with a convertible version, I would buy it immediately.

 

[Jhenson29]

EV's are a different beast than an ICE. On an EV, software *IS* the car.

I don’t understand this.

The only things different would be the drive train and the energy source storage. The car is a lot more than that and it seems there’s little reason for those other parts to have significantly or possibly any difference from a software standpoint.

ICE drive trains require a lot of software now also, although the energy storage really doesn’t.

I think maybe people associate the missing mechanical aspects of ICE with “all software” for electric.

But I think that’s misguided. It’s replaced with construction. A motor only works because of how it’s constructed.

Asynchronous motors can (and often do) run off of across-the-line starters. You can just apply line three-phase voltage to a 3-phase motor and the stator will generate a rotating magnetic field. Because of how it’s constructed (and the line voltage phasing). You can run it all you want. No software at all.

Im redoing some overhead bridge crane controls right now, and while I’m putting software on it now, the original system is from the 1950s. I reviewed the schematics. It didn’t have any software.

Of course, a drive train on a car is a poor application for an ATL starter, so there’s additional software and hardware for control. The inverter will have software running it, but it’s still a piece of hardware. And it functions largely based on its construction. It just doesn’t have moving parts.

IMO, any EV specific issues Porsche may be experiencing is likely due to lack of experience and knowledge of edge cases and error handling in that domain compared to decades of ICE experience more than a general “Porsche sucks at software”.

So, in summary, while an EV may have more software (and some different software) than an ICE, I don’t think it’s so substantial as to peg the EV as “is software” in contrast to an ICE.

 

[TDinDC]

I don’t understand this.

The only things different would be the drive train and the energy source storage. The car is a lot more than that and it seems there’s little reason for those other parts to have significantly or possibly any difference from a software standpoint.

ICE drive trains require a lot of software now also, although the energy storage really doesn’t.

I think maybe people associate the missing mechanical aspects of ICE with “all software” for electric.

But I think that’s misguided. It’s replaced with construction. A motor only works because of how it’s constructed.

Asynchronous motors can (and often do) run off of across-the-line starters. You can just apply line three-phase voltage to a 3-phase motor and the stator will generate a rotating magnetic field. Because of how it’s constructed (and the line voltage phasing). You can run it all you want. No software at all.

Im redoing some overhead bridge crane controls right now, and while I’m putting software on it now, the original system is from the 1950s. I reviewed the schematics. It didn’t have any software.

Of course, a drive train on a car is a poor application for an ATL starter, so there’s additional software and hardware for control. The inverter will have software running it, but it’s still a piece of hardware.

IMO, any EV specific issues Porsche may be experiencing is likely due to lack of experience and knowledge of edge cases and error handling in that domain compared to decades of ICE experience more than a general “Porsche sucks at software”.

So, in summary, while an EV may have more software (and some different software) than an ICE, I don’t think it’s so substantial as so peg the EV as “is software” in contrast to an ICE.

Sorry, but this is very nearly approaching straw man territory.

EVs, with so few moving parts and so much dependance on managing range and finding charging (due to lack of sufficient infrastructure), are SO much more software based and software reliant than ICE vehicles. You could still build an ICE vehicle with little to no software. This would just not be possible for an EV. This is just true. But it's also beside the point.

When it comes to the basic functions of the vehicle, the Taycan seems to do very well. Yes, I've read the post about a Taycan stranding and limping, but near fatal errors happen to all brands and all technologies, including ICE vehicles. I obviously haven't done a study, but even the anecdotal information suggests that these types of failures are rare.

From my perspective, Porsche falls down on the "everything else" side of the software equation, which is, or at least should be, the same as ICE. The entrainment, convenience, user interface, and luxury features are where Porsche largely fails. Even just stupid things, like today, on my roadtrip, I was in Range mode, and the car would automatically update (without warning), and then nearly slam on the brakes when finished because it automatically adjusts the innodrive speed down from 90 mph, where I was peacefully driving, down to 65 mph, which is the default for range mode when it has no destination. Of course, it quickly recalibrates and recognizes the destination, and then you can reset it to 90 mph, but until then you have brake-checked the tailgater behind you and needed to mash the pedal to override the limit that cannot be reset manually until the update is done. That's just stupid. Does it make the car bad? No. Is it "acceptable"? No. It sucks. and it's dangerous to boot.

 

[Jhenson29]

Sorry, but this is very nearly approaching straw man territory.

I don’t see how at all. I’m stating that saying “software is the car” contrasted to ICE is misguided. Your ICE won’t work if the softare controlling the engine fails either.

EVs, with so few moving parts and so dependent on finding charging (due to lack of sufficient infrastructure) are SO much more software based than ICE vehicles.

Disagree. Lack of moving parts doesn’t permit the disregard of design and construction. Maybe this difference is where you think I’m making a strawman?

And, FYI, I’m not dependent on finding charging infrastructure at all. It’s in my garage.

This is just true.

Lol. Okay. Glad you are reasonable.

From my perspective, Porsche falls down on the "everything else" side of the software equation, which is, or at least should be, the same as ICE.

Okay, bolding mine, but it sounds like you agree with me as far as comparing the two.

The entrainment, convenience, user interface, luxury features where Porsche largely fails.

Sorry, but everything works fine for me.

Even just stupid things, like today, on my roadtrip, I was on Range mode, and the car would automatically update (without warning), and then nearly slam on the brakes when finished because it automatically adjusts the innodrive speed down from 90 mph, where I was peacefully driving, down to 65 mph, which is the default for range mode when it has no destination. Of course, it quickly recalibrates and recognizes the destination, and then you can reset it to 90 mph, but until then you have brake-checked the tailgater behind you and needed to mash the pedal to override the limit that cannot be reset manually until the update is done.

Ok. So, maybe similar to my other point that issues are more new-domain related. I suggested EV drive train, but it maybe expands to newer driver assistance. I wouldn’t know because I don’t even have ACC. I prefer to drive my car. That’s not a dig. Just a statement. I almost never use regular CC let alone desire something more.

 

[TDinDC]

I don’t see how at all. I’m stating that saying “software is the car” contrasted to ICE is misguided. Your ICE won’t work if the softare controlling the engine fails either.


Disagree. Lack of moving parts doesn’t permit the disregard of design and construction. Maybe this difference is where you think I’m making a strawman?

And, FYI, I’m not dependent on finding charging infrastructure at all. It’s in my garage.


Lol. Okay. Glad you are reasonable.

Okay, bolding mine, but it sounds like you agree with me as far as comparing the two.

Sorry, but everything works fine for me.

Ok. So, maybe similar to my other point that issues are more new-domain related. I suggested EV drive train, but it maybe expands to newer driver assistance. I wouldn’t know because I don’t even have ACC. I prefer to drive my car. That’s not a dig. Just a statement. I almost never use regular CC let alone desire something more.

You have intentionally misread and mischaracterized my post. Feel free to win a debate I’m not trying to have.

 

[Jhenson29]

You have intentionally misread and mischaracterized my post. Feel free to win a debate I’m not trying to have.

I promise you it wasn’t intentional. I was responding to your statements as I read them. If you were tying to say something else, I have no idea what it was.

 

[thecoloradokid]

This thread is like a family reunion - lots of folks from the early days of the Taycan release in March, April, and May 2020. Some of us had the same early build Taycan issues like the 12v battery, so I am glad to see so many people have stuck around and are contributing to this discussion.

I don't think there is a right or wrong here.

I think Porsche has made a lot of progress on the Taycan. From the 2020 4s I bought in April, 2020 to the '22 Cross Turismo 4s I ordered and had delivered in June, 2022 I see and experience the improvement. I have a boat load of respect for @daveo4EV and for the info he has shared on this board over the years. I agree with him that we have a right to expect more out of Porsche in regards to OTA's, but I think we also need to acknowledge the work that Porsche has done to update and improve the vehicle since its release in Denver, 2019. It has taken some time, and the upgrade process is not as easy as some would like, but there is effort being made by Porsche.

I can't remember his name, but there was an OG on this board who drove his super early release Taycan from Maine to Florida to California and back to Maine. He was instrumental in helping identify the 12v issue in early release Taycan's and was not shy in listing out items on the early Taycan's that needed fixing, or improvement. It would be interesting to compare what his old lists itemized out with what Porsche has done to fix some of these items.

There is a way to be both happy with your Taycan and still expect more from Porsche. I absolutely love my car, but would still like to have more robust OTA capability.

 

[gnop1950]

...

I think Porsche has made a lot of progress on the Taycan. From the 2020 4s I bought in April, 2020 to the '22 Cross Turismo 4s I ordered and had delivered in June, 2022 I see and experience the improvement. I have a boat load of respect for @daveo4EV and for the info he has shared on this board over the years. I agree with him that we have a right to expect more out of Porsche in regards to OTA's, but I think we also need to acknowledge the work that Porsche has done to update and improve the vehicle since its release in Denver, 2019. It has taken some time, and the upgrade process is not as easy as some would like, but there is effort being made by Porsche.
...

This seems, at least to me, the crux of the issue. I don't doubt that many of the early adopters, as early adopters often do, have had many of the issues under discussion. I haven't had any major issues with my MY22 Taycan 4S. So, from my perspective, either Porsche has been making very significant progress or I'm just very very lucky. Since I don't appear to the the only one in this situation I'm going with Porsche having made significant progress over the past three years.

Some of the issues, like taking weeks to do an OTA update, seem to have more to do with specific dealers than with Porsche. As I believe I posted earlier my ANA6 and Charger updates took about 4 hours. I dropped the car off late morning one day and picked it up, completed, early the next morning. My dealer schedules cars to come in when they know they can work on them, at least that has been my experience so far. When I dropped it off they had it pulled into a bay and were working on it before I even left the dealership in my loaner (a Panamera that made me really appreciate my Taycan )

Now if the above makes me an apologist for Prosche then I'll proudly wear that label. I do know that my Taycan makes me very happy every time I get in it and go for a drive.

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