Scared to ask... anyone tempted by Model S Plaid?

[manitou202]

Here is the efficiency data for all three cars. Keep in mind I typically drive the Taycan in Sport Plus mode and much more aggressively than my wife drives the E-tron, or the Model X previously.

Our Model X data from the Michigan road trip along with the overall data (trip B was the Michigan trip):

Our E-tron overall data:

My Taycan overall data:

 

[fullmetalbaal]

We had a 2018 Model X 100D with the 22" wheels and the six seat configuration. I know the 22" wheels have an impact on range, but my Taycan Turbo S has the 21" Mission E wheels as well and gets much better efficiency. The interior space was great, but without the ability to put a roof rack on the car we were limited especially on ski trips.

My biggest disappointment was our road trip from Colorado to Michigan. We averaged 419 Wh/mi over 2577 miles (less then 220 miles of range when fully charged). The efficiency was bad, but the charging was worse. The outside temperatures were in the upper 80's to mid 90's and the charging speeds were rarely above 100kW. We would get to a supercharger with 15-20% remaining, it would quickly ramp to 125kW and then by 45% it would be below 100kW. We were regularly taking 45 minutes to charge to 60-70%. Needless to say it made for a long road trip.

On similar road trips with high temps and highway speeds my E-tron has worse efficiency (420-450 Wh/mi), but has a roof box installed. It also charges at 150kW all the way to 80% regardless of the outside temperature. Our charging stops were typically 15-20 minutes. So our E-tron was faster on road trips than the Model X. Then throw in our Model X cost $117k minus the tax credit versus our E-tron was negotiated down to $64k (from $75k) and the tax credit on top of that. The Model X suddenly felt very expensive, with slow charging and a lot of squeaks and rattles.

Now compare our Taycan Turbo S with 300-320 Wh/mi in range mode, with equal to or better than charging speeds of the E-tron, and it makes for an excellent road trip EV. I'm sure the new Model S LR/Plaid have a little better efficiency, but I doubt they have better charging speeds. So the argument that Porsche dropped the ball in terms of efficiency and charging speeds compared to Tesla isn't true. On the surface by looking at EPA ratings and peak charging speeds, Tesla looks like a slam dunk, but in reality Porsche is really close. Obviously charging network is another story and obviously a big part of the equation.

We are planning on diving into another new startup by trading our E-tron in for a Rivian R1S. We want the additional space relative to the E-tron and Model X, along with the ability to use a large roof rack and take camping in the back country. I'm sure this will be another crazy journey.

Yeah, there's a lot to like about the Rivian tech-wise and the interior. I just can't get over the looks (silly, I know, but there you go).

419 is crazy. How cold was it? We've done long stretches at 70-75 mph and still average at ~320 on these trips. In fact, that's the average I have over the last 6k miles, and those have mostly been road trips. I will say that winter trips to whistler are very different. Heating really eats into the range a lot. I am hoping that the heat pump in the new model X improves things.

We typically charge overnight, then drive 2-3 hrs, then charge over lunch (30 min or so). I will say that I've never seen our Model X hit 250kw, not sure if that was a later improvement. But it does hit ~200kw and stays there til 25-30% of SOC. Just last week we drove 4 hrs east of Seattle and it still charged fine in the boiling 110 degree heat wave we had...

My main concern with the Taycan (I can't wait!) is not range, but the EA network. I am just really dreading the flood of Mach-E and id.4 clogging up all the 350kw stations sipping at 75-125kw.
I think one big benefit Tesla has is that they enforced decent "slowest charging rates" on all their cars. There's no 75kw or 125kw model to gunk up the works.

There's other smaller dynamics that I'm curious how they play out. For example, the hotel we stayed in this past week had 2 tesla destination chargers, and 1 clipper creek. In the 5 nights we were there, almost every night there was a PHEV X5 using the clipper creek, and a Kia EV (Niro? not sure) and an Etron waiting their turn. There's no PHEV with tesla plugs, and I bet those drivers are unlikely to spend 200-300 on a teslatap. The tesla destination chargers were running at 48amps, the clipper creek at 32.
Not sure how representative that is - just becoming more aware of these differences as my Taycan approaches US shores

 

[fullmetalbaal]

Here is the efficiency data for all three cars. Keep in mind I typically drive the Taycan in Sport Plus mode and much more aggressively than my wife drives the E-tron, or the Model X previously.

Our Model X data from the Michigan road trip along with the overall data (trip B was the Michigan trip):

Our E-tron overall data:

My Taycan overall data:

What's notable is the difference in consumption over thousands of miles.
You're at 389 over 12k miles.
I'm seeing 318 over 6k miles.


Are you towing anything on some of those drives?
22% is a massive bite, if that's just the wheels.

The efficiency I'm observing is why I keep saying that newer Teslas can achieve EPA. I'm driving speed limit + 5-10 (often 65-75mph) , non-range mode AC, 4 people in the car + luggage for a whole family. The EPA range was 320 miles, I'm getting just over 300 miles of range. Given my use cases, that's well within reasonable. It's also closer to EPA than any of my ICE cars ever managed: Q7, E class, M3, 911s all fell at least ~15% short over their lifetimes.

 

[Scandinavian]

Thank you very much for your detailed analysis, I think what I meant to ask really was a comparison on the acceleration between the M3P and the Turbo. I mention this because I test drove a 4S and found the acceleration a bit sluggish in comparison so I flicker between wanting a Turbo and a 4S!

It‘s a shame that software wise the Taycan is so far behind the Tesla and as you said when a car is costing more than twice as much you would expect everything to be at a much higher standard.

For the acceleration, without putting the Taycan in launch mode, it still feels faster and certainly much more planted and stable. I have tried it on French motorways a few times, but you really are up in speeds that quickly will provide you accommodation with iron bar curtains! Not that I ever tried anything like that . The Model3 seems to run out of steam especially at clearly illegal speeds. I guess the acceleration in the low speed range gets the benefit of the two Stage gearbox. And it is more “brutal” than the Model3.

Go and test a Turbo, you will enjoy it, I can promise that from a driving pleasure point of view.
Good luck.

 

[JustLooking]

If referring to the Tesla Model Plaid which burned up. There were about 25 on the road at the time. So 1 out of 25? It could be significant or it might not be significant. To be determined. But it is a new model and potentially more likely to have design flaws. I recall Boeing losing a few aircraft to lithium battery fires. Across the Boeing fleet, not statistically significant, but it really was. If I am going to be a guinea pig, I would like to be paid.

Using broad brush statistics with small sample sizes is just nuts.

No, I was referring to the comment I quoted which talked about a Model S Plaid that broke down and specifically the part about "If you aren't willing to take some risk, don't buy the latest and greatest technology."

 

[Scandinavian]

I find a big difference in efficiency even driving gently when in range, and I cranked my max speed to 85 mph (135 kp) in range mode limit on day one!

I need to try this on a longer road trip then. I tried it on a trip of about 125 km, but the car had been standing in the sun and was quite warm inside when I started. It was about 28 to 30 degrees C and sunny with the sun straight above. And it was humid as well, because the car left a large puddle of water under it at the stop. So maybe a test in range mode with the car directly out the garage will be in order.

I read some other contribution about possibly changing fan speed and lowering the temperature setting to compensate, but for me it defeats the automatic settings.

I also have the range limit at 140 km/h but feel it annoying when the general traffic on the motorwy moves at close to that speed. Feels frustrating. And I am fine with the consumption in normal mode as luckily enough on that stretch there are a number of Ionity and Allego HPC.

 

[XLR82XS]

We are planning on diving into another new startup by trading our E-tron in for a Rivian R1S. We want the additional space relative to the E-tron and Model X, along with the ability to use a large roof rack and take camping in the back country. I'm sure this will be another crazy journey.

Interested to hear your feedback after some time in an R1S. Friend of mine works for Rivian.

 

[manitou202]

Interested to hear your feedback after some time in an R1S. Friend of mine works for Rivian.

We are super excited about the Rivian. We have a First Edition reservation and plan on getting the Launch Green. When my wife and I first moved to Colorado we did a lot of backcountry camping in a high ground clearance SUV. Ever since having kids we’ve had city SUV’s unable to get back to these remote areas. So we are really looking forward to the off road capabilities. Not to mention three rows with a large frunk and roof rack will be great for three kids and two large dogs.

I’m not sure how the Rivian truck (R1T) will do compared to the Cyber Truck and F-150 Lightning, but the SUV (R1S) in unmatched in terms of capabilities and price. A three row R1S is about $25k less than the equivalent Model X, has similar range, better acceleration, more storage, roof rack capable, and significantly better off road performance.

 

[manitou202]

What's notable is the difference in consumption over thousands of miles.
You're at 389 over 12k miles.
I'm seeing 318 over 6k miles.


Are you towing anything on some of those drives?
22% is a massive bite, if that's just the wheels.

The efficiency I'm observing is why I keep saying that newer Teslas can achieve EPA. I'm driving speed limit + 5-10 (often 65-75mph) , non-range mode AC, 4 people in the car + luggage for a whole family. The EPA range was 320 miles, I'm getting just over 300 miles of range. Given my use cases, that's well within reasonable. It's also closer to EPA than any of my ICE cars ever managed: Q7, E class, M3, 911s all fell at least ~15% short over their lifetimes.

We never towed anything with the X. So a couple of things. Most of my road trips outside of the city are on fast open highways with 75mph speed limits (Colorado, New Mexico, Nebraska, Iowa, Arizona) and I tend to drive 5-10 over, or in the mountains with elevation and temperature extremes. So there is a good chance that under my typical driving conditions that it’s much harder to hit the EPA range.

Having said that keep in mind that all three of our vehicles are driven in similar conditions. Our Audi has an EPA rated range of 204 miles and we are achieving 199 miles (with a roof box) based on our average. The Tesla had an EPA range of 295 miles and we achieved 236 miles. Our Taycan has an EPA rated range of 192 miles and we are averaging 239 miles (with a lot of spirited driving). So for us our Tesla fell way short while our other vehicles are performing as expected or much better.

 

[fullmetalbaal]

We are super excited about the Rivian. We have a First Edition reservation and plan on getting the Launch Green. When my wife and I first moved to Colorado we did a lot of backcountry camping in a high ground clearance SUV. Ever since having kids we’ve had city SUV’s unable to get back to these remote areas. So we are really looking forward to the off road capabilities. Not to mention three rows with a large frunk and roof rack will be great for three kids and two large dogs.

I’m not sure how the Rivian truck (R1T) will do compared to the Cyber Truck and F-150 Lightning, but the SUV (R1S) in unmatched in terms of capabilities and price. A three row R1S is about $25k less than the equivalent Model X, has similar range, better acceleration, more storage, roof rack capable, and significantly better off road performance.

I like that they are building their own charging network and you get to use EA etc. as well if needed.

 

[Mr.Smith]

No, I was referring to the comment I quoted which talked about a Model S Plaid that broke down and specifically the part about "If you aren't willing to take some risk, don't buy the latest and greatest technology."

What's more technologically impressive?
increased HP on a motor that can't handle it, hence the 170mph limiter, or 800v architecture, 270kw charging, 270kw regen, rear steering, 2 speed transmission?

After the release of the Model S in 2012 which was light years ahead of anyone, Tesla has only inovated with V3 charging of 250kw and increased HP.
Am I missing anything?

 

[fullmetalbaal]

What's more technologically impressive?
increased HP on a motor that can't handle it, hence the 170mph limiter, or 800v architecture, 270kw charging, 270kw regen, rear steering, 2 speed transmission?

After the release of the Model S in 2012 which was light years ahead of anyone, Tesla has only inovated with V3 charging of 250kw and increased HP.
Am I missing anything?

Yes, lots.

I'll stick to the Taycan side, since that's the part I'd love to see improved.

800V isn't an upside by itself. It needs to give us higher efficiency, lower weight, more range, faster charging (measured in miles per min). On all of those metrics, unclear that the Taycan really broke new ground. Maybe they needed other components to catch up to 800V? Who knows.

Re: the transmission: time will tell. My bet is Taycan V2 does without a transmission and goes with 2 motors in the back (like Plaid, Nevera, etc.). Seems like the same weight/space you use for a transmission could go to an extra motor.

Rear steering: I want cars light and small enough again so I can have decent handling without rear steering. If I could option "500lb less weight" I would pay lots for that.

 

[Mr.Smith]

Yes, lots.

I'll stick to the Taycan side, since that's the part I'd love to see improved.

800V isn't an upside by itself. It needs to give us higher efficiency, lower weight, more range, faster charging (measured in miles per min). On all of those metrics, unclear that the Taycan really broke new ground. Maybe they needed other components to catch up to 800V? Who knows.

Re: the transmission: time will tell. My bet is Taycan V2 does without a transmission and goes with 2 motors in the back (like Plaid, Nevera, etc.). Seems like the same weight/space you use for a transmission could go to an extra motor.

Rear steering: I want cars light and small enough again so I can have decent handling without rear steering. If I could option "500lb less weight" I would pay lots for that.

You missed Teslas innovations in your response.

 

[fullmetalbaal]

You missed Teslas innovations in your response.

Sure, if you like. Long list of small and larger changes to software, battery chemistry, drivetrain (Original, then Raven, then Palladium), and charging

At the top end:
They went from 4.2s to 60, to 3s, to 2.8 to ~2s. (If early data is to believed, Plaid also made that repeatable.)
They went from 265 miles of range to ~280, to ~350 to ~400. (Simplified, IIRC there were many stops in between)

Super charging went from 72kw to 100 to 120 to 150 to 200 to 250. They are now claiming 15 min for 200 miles. Even with a substantial "discount" that is likely on par with the Taycan.

That leaves out changes to bring the cost down significantly. In many ways, the improvements on the LR (or previously "70" etc. tier) have been more drastic.

They also updated the suspension, and replaced the computers with newer generations once or twice.


Lots of valid criticism one can throw at Tesla, them standing still wouldn't be one that I'd go for.

 

[kreshi]

Yes, lots.

I'll stick to the Taycan side, since that's the part I'd love to see improved.

800V isn't an upside by itself. It needs to give us higher efficiency, lower weight, more range, faster charging (measured in miles per min). On all of those metrics, unclear that the Taycan really broke new ground. Maybe they needed other components to catch up to 800V? Who knows.

Re: the transmission: time will tell. My bet is Taycan V2 does without a transmission and goes with 2 motors in the back (like Plaid, Nevera, etc.). Seems like the same weight/space you use for a transmission could go to an extra motor.

Rear steering: I want cars light and small enough again so I can have decent handling without rear steering. If I could option "500lb less weight" I would pay lots for that.

The transmission clearly has significant advantages to EVs without one. I don't see why you would remove it instead of improving it.

"I don't want rear wheel steering I want a lighter and smaller car". What do those things in that sentence have to do with eachother??? Again, what are we doing here? Pointing at things Porsche did extremely well at their first EV??? A 911 GT3 has rearwheel steering. Those idiot Porsche engineers could've skipped that and instead should've built a smaller and lighter 911?

"They are now claiming 15 min for 200 miles". Claims Tesla or Elon make have the same integrity as a central african dictator. Just like their claimed range has been from 2012 to 2021. I am a Porsche fanboy, no denial, but can we take facts as actual facts and not some imaginary numbers that certain PR departments are releasing?

"800V isn't an upside by itself. It needs to give us higher efficiency, lower weight, more range, faster charging (measured in miles per min). On all of those metrics, unclear that the Taycan really broke new ground. Maybe they needed other components to catch up to 800V? Who knows." Again, so sorry if this feels like an attack (it isn't) but am I uninformed or is it you? Serious question. 800v has CLEAR significant improvements to most things you listed. Porsche did not get a 50% cut on weight at their first EV and they aren't charging at 400kw at 80% SoC, but it is definitely the right direction to go and a great start. People mentioning how their Tesla charges at great speed of 200kw up to 25-30% battery, while the Taycan is at 259kw at over 40% (I posted a picture of my charger in this forum when that happened).

Plenty of things to improve, but just as I said in another post about OTA. People often act like Porsche does ZERO OTA. And often people also act like the Taycan is a failure and nowhere near the competition. Tesla deserves respect on many levels, but so do Porsche and many other manufacturers.

ps: listing 0-60 times as the very first major improvement you can think of by Tesla speaks volumes. They know their target audience too well.

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