Scared to ask... anyone tempted by Model S Plaid?

[Jhenson29]

800V isn't an upside by itself.

In a complete vacuum, no, but relative to a lower voltage, to me, it seems, the upside would be lower current (and thus less heat) for the same power.

I see peak charge rates for the Taycan and Tesla claimed as being “close”, but that doesn’t tell anything about the charge curve, where (last I saw) the Taycan was much better at holding a higher charge rate longer, no?

Honestly though, none of these numbers matter to me. 0-60. Range. Charge rate. Etc… whatever. I drove down to Alabama today. I must have seen two dozen Tesla’s on the road. They’re boring and owning one would make me sad. And I have no interest in spending $100k+ to make myself sad. I have much less expensive ways to do that.

But if it makes someone else happy…by all means…

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[fullmetalbaal]

The transmission clearly has significant advantages to EVs without one. I don't see why you would remove it instead of improving it.

We shall see. I'd be willing to take a longer term bet that we won't have a transmission in gen 2 or gen 3. We'll have 3-4 motors though. Happy to take a friendly wager for a cold beer in Switzerland or near Stuttgart .

"I don't want real wheel steering I want a lighter and smaller car". What do those things in that sentence have to do with eachother??? Again, what are we doing here? Pointing at things Porsche did extremely well at their first EV??? A 911 GT3 has rearwheel steering. Those idiot Porsche engineers could've skipped that and instead should've built a smaller and lighter 911?

Not saying they are idiots. They deal with a lot of requirements and constraints and optimize for revenue and profitability. The GT3 for a while was PDK only. Not what I want. The 911.2 GTS that I drive day to day does a lot of things really well, but many trade-offs are not what I wanted. For example, the turbos aren't great in daily driving: It sounds like crap, and the lag is definitely there, unless you keep them spooled in sport plus.

Back to rear wheel steering: I guess I am saying: they could spend less time on the menu of extra add-ons and more time on optimizing the basic car. It increasingly feels like they have the same part bins for all Porsche and all options need to be leveraged everywhere.

"They are now claiming 15 min for 200 miles". Claims Tesla or Elon make have the same integrity as an central african dictator. Just like their claimed range has been from 2012 to 2021. I am a Porsche fanboy, no denial, but can we take facts as actual facts and not some imaginary numbers that certain PR departments are releasing?

Hence my sentence around "discounting" it somewhat. Shouldn't take much longer for people to share videos of actual range - there's already some data points on charging having improved significantly.

"800V isn't an upside by itself. It needs to give us higher efficiency, lower weight, more range, faster charging (measured in miles per min). On all of those metrics, unclear that the Taycan really broke new ground. Maybe they needed other components to catch up to 800V? Who knows." Again, so sorry if this feels like an attack (it isn't) but am I uninformed or is it you? Serious question. 800v has CLEAR significant improvements to most things you listed. Porsche did not get a 50% cut on weight at their first EV and they aren't charging at 400kw at 80% SoC, but it is definitely the right direction to go and a great start. People mentioning how their Tesla charges at great speed of 200kw up to 25-30% battery, while the Taycan is at 259kw at over 40% (I posted a picture of my charger in this forum when that happened).

Plenty of things to improve, but just as I said in another post about OTA. People often act like Porsche does ZERO OTA. And often people also act like the Taycan is a failure and nowhere near the competition. Tesla deserves respect on many levels, but so do Porsche and many other manufacturers.

ps: listing 0-60 times as the very first major improvement you can think of by Tesla speaks volumes. They know their target audience too well.

See the charging curves that model 3 or plaid are showing. Everybody is showing mostly the same curves (incl Hyundai with their new 800V, incl early data from Rivian). I can post a picture from my Model 3, or you can look the flood of pics we'll no doubt get from new Plaid/refresh LR owners. This seems to be battery limited for everybody. Going beyond 250-270kw is tough (Porsche had planned >300Kw, I still have the piece of paper claiming that when I signed onto the wait list for my Taycan). Staying above 200-250 beyond 30% of SOC is tough. and nobody stays above 100% once you get to 70-80%. (when you remove excessive buffer).

+1 on Porsche deserving respect for the Taycan. I voted with my money, and will be super excited to pick one up.

I listed the most easily googled numbers/facts around performance and efficiency, since it seemed the main question was about drive-train improvements. There's tons of improvements out there, a lot around the computers for example. It's now easy to forget that a lot of what the car ships with wasn't around in 2013. Dashcam/sentry mode for example is super useful IMHO and I wish I could get this for the Taycan. I can't deal with another camera hanging on the windshield - why can't they use the cameras the car already has?

It will be interesting whether the new Model S drives better than the old one. They clearly revamped the suspension as well, let's see how that affected the feeling. Model 3 was IMHO already much better than Model S. (Yes, neither is anywhere near Porsche - not the point, I'm talking about them learning).

 

[fullmetalbaal]

In a complete vacuum, no, but relative to a lower voltage, to me, it seems, the upside would be lower current (and thus less heat) for the same power.

I see peak charge rates for the Taycan and Tesla claimed as being “close”, but that doesn’t tell anything about the charge curve, where (last I saw) the Taycan was much better at holding a higher charge rate longer, no?

Honestly though, none of these numbers matter to me. 0-60. Range. Charge rate. Etc… whatever. I drove down to Alabama today. I must have seen two dozen Tesla’s on the road. They’re boring and owning one would make me sad. And I have no interest in spending $100k+ to make myself sad. I have much less expensive ways to do that.

But if it makes someone else happy…by all means…

Well. What really matters in terms of charging is miles charged per minute. Model 3 was already roughly on par with Taycan, if the early photos are to be believed Model S now caught up as well. (ballpark, likely slightly ahead, but I don't think the last single digit percentage matters).

What I'm saying about the 800V - it's like Samsung claiming more memory than Apple iPhones. Yes. More memory is better, but the rest of the system matters too. What matters is the end metric of performance (which Apple typically wins). Which is better: 800V but not SiC inverters vs. 400V and SiC inverters? Who knows. It's the package that matters end to end. Porsche is advertising one spec sheet point in a vacuum.

Fully agree that a Taycan is far more special. In terms of looks, in terms of exclusivity, in terms of brand power - if that's what one wants. No disagreement at all. The looks matter to me a lot as well. I spent more time than is healthy picking the color and the wheels and the interior.

 

[Jhenson29]

Well. What really matters in terms of charging is miles charged per minute. Model 3 was already roughly on par with Taycan, if the early photos are to be believed Model S now caught up as well. (ballpark, likely slightly ahead, but I don't think the last single digit percentage matters).

Actual miles or Tesla miles? ?

I spent more time than is healthy picking the color and the wheels and the interior.

I’ll assume you mean the Taycan and not the Tesla, what with their five exterior colors, two wheel choices, and two and half interiors (black, white…and other white). ?

 

[fullmetalbaal]

Actual miles or Tesla miles? ?

Estimated Actual Miles (TM).

taycan: 22 min for 5->80% = 75% of 270 miles = 22 min for 200 miles.
tesla: 15 min for 200 miles, assuming 20% discount = 15 min for 160 miles -> 234 miles in the 22 min.

You can even penalize Tesla by 30% (and note I'm using 270 miles for Taycan...)

I’ll assume you mean the Taycan and not the Tesla, what with their five exterior colors, two wheel choices, and two and half interiors (black, white…and other white). ?

Taycan 4S in white (boring, I know, but it looks sooo clean). I just can't wait - here's to hoping the delays are over and it doesn't end up sitting around at the port

 

[Jhenson29]

Estimated Actual Miles (TM).

?

tesla: 15 min for 200 miles, assuming 20% discount = 15 min for 160 miles -> 234 miles in the 22 min.

You can even penalize Tesla by 30% (and note I'm using 270 miles for Taycan...)

270 is low for the Taycan, looking at my car. I’m regularly at 260 @ 85%. I hope there’s more than 10 miles in that last 15%…

I’m not going to penalize Tesla anything right now because they’re just claims and not worth evaluating.

(I do zero public charging, so it doesn’t affect me one way or another.)

Taycan 4S in white (boring,

I’m driving a Ford Transit Connect this week in white. ?
(..and it’s still better than a Tesla ?)

I kid. Congrats! ? You’ll love it. Or not. I don’t know. You can always give it to me if you don’t like it. ?

 

[fullmetalbaal]

?

270 is low for the Taycan, looking at my car. I’m regularly at 260 @ 85%. I hope there’s more than 10 miles in that last 15%…

I’m not going to penalize Tesla anything right now because they’re just claims and not worth evaluating.

(I do zero public charging, so it doesn’t affect me one way or another.)

I’m driving a Ford Transit Connect this week in white. ?
(..and it’s still better than a Tesla ?)

I kid. Congrats! ? You’ll love it. Or not. I don’t know. You can always give it to me if you don’t like it. ?

While I really hope that you're right about 270 being low, there's also tons of folks on the forum here reporting lower than this as well. If I get 250-260 reliably when traveling at US highway speeds and without compromising comfort (sorry, I need AC!) or anything else (no tailgating trucks or other dumb shit), I'll be super happy.

I went with the 20" turbo aero - we'll see if I regret that or not.

 

[Jhenson29]

While I really hope that you're right about 270 being low, there's also tons of folks on the forum here reporting lower than this as well. If I get 250-260 reliably when traveling at US highway speeds and without compromising comfort (sorry, I need AC!) or anything else (no tailgating trucks or other dumb shit), I'll be super happy.

I went with the 20" turbo aero - we'll see if I regret that or not.

I’m stating numbers for normal w/ AC (not eco). I posted a pic on Sun of charging to 100% w/335 miles, but it was cheating ? showing range mode with AC off. But it was still well over 300 in normal with AC.

I have a 4S+ with 20” sport aero wheels, so I would guess similar to yours. The car was delivered with all season tires at a high PSI (41-42 PSI) which I’ve left alone. And it’s summer.
I’ll also admit my wife does almost half the driving (it’s her DD, not mine, but I make up for it on the weekends…) and her driving is rather granny-esque. ?

 

[Goldeneyez]

Not a Plaid review, but I rented a refreshed Model S LR over the weekend, because I’ve been mentally going back and forth about the Model S vs my custom RWD as my first EV. The fit and finish is much nicer than the 2020 I rented a few months ago, the tech works pretty well, and the regen is much smoother than the 2020 model. And of course, the car is very, very fast.

However….it still feels like it could fly off the road when cornering (the handling is better but nowhere near that of Porsche), the sound system is suboptimal, and the combination of the unnecessary yoke and screen-based gear shifting made maneuvers like 3-point turns, U-turns and parallel parking more cumbersome. I felt like I was playing a video game on the freeway driving with the yoke - it just felt awkward no matter how I held it. I also scared a poor woman in the parking lot when I accidentally honked the horn (a button on the upper right of the yoke) while turning the yoke to back out of a parking spot. And yes, on two occasions, I grabbed for a part of the wheel that isn’t there, which was just annoying.

The car was beautiful, and it was fun to “take off” a few times, but I didn’t feel any real joy or engagement driving it after those initial moments. I eventually drove it to the Porsche dealership, sat in a showroom Taycan with the same black full-leather interior I spec’d, and sighed in relief. I respect those who choose the Tesla and understand the tech advantages, but I have made my choice, finally, and I cannot wait to drive my Taycan when it arrives!

 

[feye]

I'm also sticking to my Taycan order, and anxiously expecting the arrival of the car - I'm just not 10/10 happy with Porsche on this one.

Good, judge again, after you had your Taycan for a few months...

 

[Arjan_]

800V isn't an upside by itself. It needs to give us higher efficiency, lower weight, more range, faster charging

It does due to the 800v architecture the currents are lower and hence there is less heat. This means that the copper cables could be made thinner which reduces weight.

 

[fullmetalbaal]

It does due to the 800v architecture the currents are lower and hence there is less heat. This means that the copper cables could be made thinner which reduces weight.

I know those are the quoted advantages. Makes sense too.

But we don't have the end-to-end system for analysis.
Are 800V inverters the same size and weight as 400V? Are they SiC?
Are all the other systems that would usually feed from 400V heavier/lighter in the 800V world?

And then there's all the details of Porsche's specific approach: Is the weight advantage of thinner cables larger than the extra weight that Porsche decided to spend on having charging plugs on both sides of the car?

The Taycan is HEAVY - 800V is clearly not the panacea.
If they had details and clear impact: 4000 lb instead of 5000 lb car because of 800V, here's how - awesome! Otherwise it's just a marketing bullet point.

Put another way: early iterations of new tech or new stages in a technology aren't always able to fully benefit the end user in the way they eventually will/could. 800V seems to be in that bucket.

This is not a Porsche thing at all. The same is true for Hyundai, at 4,233–4,542 lb the Ioniq 5 is not any lighter than other EVs in its class.

 

[submatrix]

Not a Plaid review, but I rented a refreshed Model S LR over the weekend, because I’ve been mentally going back and forth about the Model S vs my custom RWD as my first EV. The fit and finish is much nicer than the 2020 I rented a few months ago, the tech works pretty well, and the regen is much smoother than the 2020 model. And of course, the car is very, very fast.

However….it still feels like it could fly off the road when cornering (the handling is better but nowhere near that of Porsche), the sound system is suboptimal, and the combination of the unnecessary yoke and screen-based gear shifting made maneuvers like 3-point turns, U-turns and parallel parking more cumbersome. I felt like I was playing a video game on the freeway driving with the yoke - it just felt awkward no matter how I held it. I also scared a poor woman in the parking lot when I accidentally honked the horn (a button on the upper right of the yoke) while turning the yoke to back out of a parking spot. And yes, on two occasions, I grabbed for a part of the wheel that isn’t there, which was just annoying.

The car was beautiful, and it was fun to “take off” a few times, but I didn’t feel any real joy or engagement driving it after those initial moments. I eventually drove it to the Porsche dealership, sat in a showroom Taycan with the same black full-leather interior I spec’d, and sighed in relief. I respect those who choose the Tesla and understand the tech advantages, but I have made my choice, finally, and I cannot wait to drive my Taycan when it arrives!

Thanks for the feedback. Did you rent from Turo? I wonder if it will be possible to test drive the LR soon. Having a Taycan now, and only one month out from driving my 2018 Model S, I'd be real curious to compare the driving experience between the 3 cars "back to back". With the reports of Plaid having massively improved handling/steering, I'm really curious how much the LR improved in this regard.

 

[JustLooking]

Thanks for the feedback. Did you rent from Turo? I wonder if it will be possible to test drive the LR soon. Having a Taycan now, and only one month out from driving my 2018 Model S, I'd be real curious to compare the driving experience between the 3 cars "back to back". With the reports of Plaid having massively improved handling/steering, I'm really curious how much the LR improved in this regard.

If you're going to go through that process, I recommend trying the Model 3 instead of the S - if the size works for you that is. Smaller, lighter, nimbler, etc. It won't win any show awards though and the interior is minimalist. Depends on your use-case and other cars I guess

Don't forget to set all of the settings to your preferences, go through the menu's.

 

[submatrix]

If you're going to go through that process, I recommend trying the Model 3 instead of the S - if the size works for you that is. Smaller, lighter, nimbler, etc. It won't win any show awards though and the interior is minimalist. Depends on your use-case and other cars I guess

Don't forget to set all of the settings to your preferences, go through the menu's.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I actually have test driven the Model 3 before, back when my 2018 Model S lease was ending and I was trying to decide whether I would stick with my refreshed Model S LR order or go with the Taycan. The Model 3 was a longshot that I was pretty sure would not have the premium feel I was looking for, and I confirmed that on the test drive. I've now been driving the Taycan for about a month now, but I've still been curious just how much they improved the internals in the refreshed LR (exterior is obvious from pics).

My point is that since I was driving my 2018 S just a little over a month ago, I still have the muscle memory of what it's like to drive that car. If I'm then able to test drive the refreshed LR, I will be able to compare to what "it used to feel like". Obviously, I'd then also be able to compare to my current Taycan.

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