Scared to ask... anyone tempted by Model S Plaid?

[Jhenson29]

Cars in 2030:

Well, they claimed 0-60 in 1.685059 seconds, but actually, it’s only 1.685080.

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[manitou202]

https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-s-plaid-test-data-analysis-milestones-records/

0-60, with rollout, on non-prepped asphalt, 2.07 seconds.
0-60, no rollout, no drag mode, no pre-conditioning, no Cheetah stance: 2.45 seconds.

2.45 seconds @ stop light with no preparation…
2.07 sec requires all the 'setup'

0-60 in 2.45 seconds is the real result. That’s what you get when driving around town. The 2.07 seconds is a party trick that takes 10 minutes of preparation.

I’ll be curious to see if Tesla puts limits on the drag mode in the future. Kinda like Nissan with the GTR and putting limits on the number of launch controls.

Yes the Taycan gives you more power as well when launch control is activated but it only takes about 2 seconds.

 

[Jhenson29]

Dave,

Not to mention the new motors don't lose power at high RPM. Produces a flat power curve (1000hp) from 60mph (6k rpm) all the way up to 200mph (20krpm). All with one gear. That something that Porsche hasent Been able to figure out without a gearbox yet ?

I guess you’ll need to explain this more. Constant HP above base speed is a general characteristic of electric motors.

This is a typical torque/HP curve:

Torque is constant up to base speed as HP rises, then HP is constant above base speed as torque drops off.

There are various specialty motors, for example wide HP motors have a low base speed and higher ratio of max speed to base speed by running a higher current at low speeds that tapers off as output voltage rises.

But the above graph is typical.

Here’s a screen shot of a dyno from a 4S.

Link:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/485306/porsche-taycan-4s-dyno-teste/amp/

So, this looks kind of how we would expect. The main difference is there are two slopes for torque due to the gearbox.

Now, I was curious about this power curve you reference for Tesla, so I looked it up and this is what I found:

Link:
https://insideevs.com/news/513388/tesla-models-plaid-drive-unit/

So, to me, it looks like the story regarding this power curve isn’t that Tesla leaped forward. It’s that they (at best) caught up (and it still drops off...low bar for “perfect”).

But to claim that Porsche hasn’t “figured this out”? Whatever.

Porsche’s motors appear to produce a flat power curve (at least compared to old Model S) up to max RPM. Best I can tell.

 

[RY01]

I guess you’ll need to explain this more. Constant HP above base speed is a general characteristic of electric motors.

This is a typical torque/HP curve:

Torque is constant up to base speed as HP rises, then HP is constant above base speed as torque drops off.

There are various specialty motors, for example wide HP motors have a low base speed and higher ratio of max speed to base speed by running a higher current at low speeds that tapers off as output voltage rises.

But the above graph is typical.

Here’s a screen shot of a dyno from a 4S.

Link:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/485306/porsche-taycan-4s-dyno-teste/amp/

So, this looks kind of how we would expect. The main difference is there are two slopes for torque due to the gearbox.

Now, I was curious about this power curve you reference for Tesla, so I looked it up and this is what I found:

Link:
https://insideevs.com/news/513388/tesla-models-plaid-drive-unit/

So, to me, it looks like the story regarding this power curve isn’t that Tesla leaped forward. It’s that they (at best) caught up (and it still drops off...low bar for “perfect”).

But to claim that Porsche hasn’t “figured this out”? Whatever.

Porsche’s motors appear to produce a flat power curve (at least compared to old Model S) up to max RPM. Best I can tell.

The reason why the Porsche has a 2 speed gearbox is because it won't make that power curve without one and still have good low end torque Thats exactly what I said.

Let's see Porsche pull that power curve with one gear and have a 200mph top speed. It can't. It produces too much back EMF at 20k rpm. If Porsche could do that they wouldn't find it necessary to use a gearbox.

 

[Jhenson29]

The reason why the Porsche has a 2 speed gearbox is because it won't make that power curve without one. Thats exactly what I said.

I don’t think the gear change is affecting the power curve (other than making it flatten out sooner). It’s a least not affecting it in the way you think it is. It’s affecting the torque curve.

 

[Jhenson29]

Let's see Porsche pull that power curve with one gear and have a 200mph top speed. It can't. It produces too much back EMF at 20k rpm. If Porsche could do that they wouldn't find it necessary to use a gearbox.

I personally don’t understand the interest in overspeeding the motor so much. You lose torque, which is what you want for accel. I’d much rather stay closer to base speed and if that means a multi-speed gearbox, so be it.

 

[RY01]

I don’t think the gearbox is affecting the power curve (other than making it flatten out sooner). It’s a least not affecting it in the way you think it is. It’s affecting the torque curve.

You're right the power "curve" will look same but the time to reach peak power would be way longer in the upper gear. This the reason for the 2 speed gearbox. It would take the Taycan motor way longer to spin up if they just used one higher gear.

The reason to overspeed the motor if it can maintain the power is to eliminate parts and losses. If the motor has a peak power and efficency range from 6k to 20k rpm with no output loss it eliminates the need for extra parts.

 

[feye]

what other vehicle has dual rear motors for independent torque vectoring and 1000 hp? I’m just curious what you consider normal tech?

Rimac, but who cares?

 

[daveo4EV]

Rimac, but who cares?

honest question is rimac shipping?

 

[feye]

You cant call people Tesla haters while defending every single thing people write here

Sweet - but I don't mind being an infidel in the new T fanboy jihad world.

What happens when you have a sudden loss of power in one of the two motors? Could be an interesting torque vector...

 

[feye]

honest question is rimac shipping?

Selling by showing it to journalists and letting them drive a pre-production model. But "who cares" because, it has insane HP, speed, cost 2 mil and will only produce 200 pieces.

More interesting could be that VW will most likely ask Rimac to electrify Bugatti with their tech...

 

[Jhenson29]

What happens when you have a sudden loss of power in one of the two motors? Could be an interesting torque vector...

I’d say you’re going to end up end in a ditch, but the “self-driving” probably put you there first...??

Just kidding, they could probably cut power to the other motor before there’s a major problem. But I also didn’t really look too hard at what that looks like at 200mph...

 

[Mouse House]

Dave,

Not to mention the new motors don't lose power at high RPM. Produces a flat power curve (1000hp) from 60mph (6k rpm) all the way up to 200mph (20krpm). All with one gear. That something that Porsche hasent Been able to figure out without a gearbox yet ?

If true this is not a good thing. As power is a function of torque x RPM, a flat power band means the torque is falling off right from the start.

A 2-speed box is a great idea for electric vehicles, regardless of "carbon stator" nonsense.

E: I should read to the end of threads before commenting

 

[Mouse House]

Reading the Motor Trend article the Plaid does not in any way sound like the equal to a Taycan in driving dynamics

The steering's artificial heaviness gives the impression it lacks a bit of precision, but it's easy to keep the wheels pointed where you want them. Somewhat surprisingly, we didn't feel much torque vectoring coming from the rear axle. Getting on the throttle early midcorner doesn't result in the Model S pivoting quickly and clawing out of the curve like you experience in most other high-power all-wheel-drive vehicles. Instead, it pushes hard on its outside tires even as it avoids true understeer. A more aggressive Sport suspension setting could help; even with the system in its firmest mode, the Plaid still exhibited a tendency to lean hard, much in the way many hot hatches do.

Sounds like an understeering boat with numb steering. Kind of as you would expect.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021/2022-tesla-model-s-plaid-first-test-review

 

[ithinkmac]

I think we should accept the fact that Tesla has great tech, Plaid is an awesome car. I think you just can't wipe away their impact on the EV world, period. No Tesla Model S, no Taycan. I love my Teslas for what they are, EVs with great range and charging network. I'm ordering a Cross Turismo because I also love Porsche's build quality and overall feel. I couldn't wait for the Plaid and facelift, so I got another X last Nov.

I have yet to own a Taycan, but I have taken dozens of road trips in my Model Xs and Model 3. No issue whatsoever. At some Supercharger stations with EA chargers near by, I always see somebody on the phone with EA, asking why the charger don't work, or have them reset charger, etc... Of course, I'm hoping this will change over time.

My Taycan Cross Turismo will be my daily driver, commute, work, canyon carver. My X will be my road trip car.

I'm curious how many people have a Taycan as their ONLY car? I can live with my Model X as the only car, but I don't think I can with the Taycan, at least not with the current charging infrastructure.

IF the new Plaid's build quality has improved. I might be interested in a Plaid X to replace my '16 X.

Tesla is still ahead of the whole EV market. Yes, Taycans are great, but it's still years behind. You can say they have the best build quality in the world, and drives great (I'm buying one), it's still a very niche player right now.

Everybody says onlookers drool over a Taycan, I would too. I think it looks way better than a Model S, but they're not going to move the needle by selling Taycans. Tesla will keep moving the needle, Model 3, Model Y, mass appeal. You might not like it, but the guy that owns a Camry will save up to buy one, Camry owner will not be saving up to buy a Taycan just because it's an EV.

Porsche does add a blip to Elon's radar. Because of the Taycan, Plaid exist!! I mean, the man child Elon just wants to claim best at everything. Good for him, but even better for us, because he can make it happen. How many meetings do you think will take before VAG will enable build-in dashcam recording? Took a couple of tweets, and Elon says "yes", a few software updates, and boom.

These are 2 very different car culture icons. Hence their customers will be vastly different based on their own likes and dislikes. Nobody wants to feel like they just own something that's inferior to the other side. Human nature, hence everybody defending their own platform.

BUT, after typing all that. My point is. Both brands will help move EV forward, it could be Tesla taking the lead for a cycle, then Porsche Gen 2 Taycan will blow everybody away, then we get a new thread like this all over again. Either way, it's good for us. I'm lucky and fortunate I can choose both brands, for those that can't. They'll choose what's best for their own reasons, and Tesla churning out a few hundred thousand cars every quarter says a lot of people choose them. But the more EVs both companies sell, the better our world will be. Future transportation is a win for consumers.

-ThinkMac-

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