Battery Degradation

[taycanlovers]

Since the recent uPdate I've been reading the updated documentation and the 'recommended' 80% daily charging is explained away by using time spent charging as the reason (hitherto we've all waxed lyrical on battery management, longevity and all of that). The reason given is that once you reach 80% then the rate and therefore speed of charging slows down considerably (as we all know) and so no need to waste time getting to 85% or higher and spend that 'lost' time on the road.

Whilst this may be the latest guidance from Porsche they appear to have overlooked that low power AC charging e.g. 7.4kW rarely drops below 6kW towards the target charge - hardly material.

Ultra fast DC charging as you point out generates much more heat and therefore caution is needed and probably even less need to charge regularly this way beyond 80% - 85% if you want to be kind to your battery.

I conclude therefore that daily charging on single phase 32A (7.4kW) to 80% - 85% is nothing to worry about on the degradation front. Degradation is unavoidable at the end of the day and it just a question of how much you may notice (or not).

we can hope that this take into account and no more dropping in an rage from 10 to 20%. In my opinion this very first generations will have hudge drop in price in order to not know how long and in which conditions the battery packs will be in 10 years +

i have few insights how the dealers, respective the financals calculates the residual values. with selling the very first teslas they owned a lot of money in order to have after 3 years an much higher residual values for as they calculated.

With this actual massive production problems in order to have less chips and other stuffs, its definitly a long way to get significate drop in prices but on older cars 10+ we will see it for sure because of expecting problems with battery capacity. i will re-quote me in 2032 to see what happend.

you already noticed new battery cells technology BMW will implement soon?
- Much faster charging (+30%)
- much more energy density (+20%)
- range (+30%)
- production costs (-50%)

they plan to have first cars in line with this changes in 2025.

all manufactures are focused on this major key indicators to just: get better technology in order to less weight, more capacity and overall with much lower costs in production line. it just begins to get really good.
actually it definitly isnt!

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[MrJohnDolk]

Battery degradation is very hard to define and calculate from normal driving and charging habits. I have now driven 41.500 km in 21 months, and are slow charging 98% of the time.. Have not noticed any reduction in range at all - are still getting 450 km on a full charge - the same as when it was new…

Asked my Porsche dealer when was at service at 30.000 km, and they could not determine any degradation - could only say that the battery test showed status OK - the same they get when testing new cars…

So - i would assume that some degradation is present, but haven‘t really noticed any… Would love to be able to do a precise test, to see the actual status and capacity of the battery - not because i worry, but just because I’m curious…

So if anyone have a way to test it - let me know please

 

[herminal]

I don’t think it matters too much.. battery degradation will occur no matter what.. even when the car is never charged..

my model S has almost exclusively been supercharged for 100.000 miles and still have only lost 15% after 4 years.. last two years maybe 1% each year..

Taycan on the other hand gets charged at home.. 11kw AC.
Just use it without thinking about it is my recommendation.

 

[wemct]

On the topic of battery degradation and DC fast charging, I'm wondering to what extent everyone here avoids DC fast charging to minimize battery degradation. I have a PMCC installed in the garage, but we also have an EA station with multiple 150kW stalls less than a mile from the house. Since we get 3 years of free 30 min. charges, I've gotten in the habit of using the EA station once or twice a week. In the time it takes me to walk to the Starbucks down the street and back, I've taken the car from 40% to 85% for free, but if this is coming at the expense of increased degradation to the battery I'll rely more on charging at home at night. FWIW - I have "battery friendly" fast charging enabled. How worried should I be about DC fast-charging if I'm only charging to 85%?

I have a 2020 4S (the first one delivered in the US on this forum). I used EA DC fast charging quite a bit when the car was new because I didn't have the NEMA 14-50 outlet at my house. I then got the outlet installed and went through a period of time when I charged mostly at home to 85% every night. In the past I have also stored the Taycan for up to 6 weeks, plugged in at 85%. Last Oct, I drove the car back up to CT and exclusively used EA DC fast chargers until July. The car is back at my house in GA, so I mostly use home charging again to 85%. Over the course of ownership, I have done eight 1000 mile road trips all using EA DC fast chargers.

As one of the oldest Taycans in the US I have not noticed any negative impact on range due to my extensive use of EA DC fast chargers, charging and storing the vehicle at 85%, and charging to 100% for my road trips. Here is a screen shot at the end of yesterday's home charging session.

85% - 221 miles (100% - 260 miles) which is in line with what I have seen during the summer months during the course of my ownership. Fyi, I have an air conditioned garage that maintains an ambient air temp of 75F. I have 21 inch Mission E rims and drive the car as it should be driven as a Porsche. The car is going into the dealership tomorrow for the software update. It will be interesting to see if the range increases post update.

 

[Deleted member 6348]

As high mileage Teslas have shown, DC fast charging has precious little impact on battery degradation.

Yes, when you get the update, your guess-o-meter will get recalibrated again.

 

[Scandinavian]

Battery degradation is very hard to define and calculate from normal driving and charging habits. I have now driven 41.500 km in 21 months, and are slow charging 98% of the time.. Have not noticed any reduction in range at all - are still getting 450 km on a full charge - the same as when it was new…

Wow that is good. What wheel size do you have?

I have not seen 400 km range ever. Max has been bout 380 km.

 

[mystermykee]

I have a 2020 4S (the first one delivered in the US on this forum). I used EA DC fast charging quite a bit when the car was new because I didn't have the NEMA 14-50 outlet at my house. I then got the outlet installed and went through a period of time when I charged mostly at home to 85% every night. In the past I have also stored the Taycan for up to 6 weeks, plugged in at 85%. Last Oct, I drove the car back up to CT and exclusively used EA DC fast chargers until July. The car is back at my house in GA, so I mostly use home charging again to 85%. Over the course of ownership, I have done eight 1000 mile road trips all using EA DC fast chargers.

As one of the oldest Taycans in the US I have not noticed any negative impact on range due to my extensive use of EA DC fast chargers, charging and storing the vehicle at 85%, and charging to 100% for my road trips. Here is a screen shot at the end of yesterday's home charging session.

85% - 221 miles (100% - 260 miles) which is in line with what I have seen during the summer months during the course of my ownership. Fyi, I have an air conditioned garage that maintains an ambient air temp of 75F. I have 21 inch Mission E rims and drive the car as it should be driven as a Porsche. The car is going into the dealership tomorrow for the software update. It will be interesting to see if the range increases post update.

How accurate is this though? If you just happened to drive hard on the freeway/run the AC just before getting home, the guesstimate probably won't be that high. I charge to 80% and it ranges from 190-205mi.

So for anyone who is comparing your range to others on this board, don't feel degraded (haaa) if you're not getting the same lol.

I'm also curious to know which options you have and how much they play a role in range? RAS, coils vs air suspension, sport sound, hell even Bose vs Burmester.

 

[MrJohnDolk]

Wow that is good. What wheel size do you have?

I have not seen 400 km range ever. Max has been bout 380 km.

Have the 20” turbo sport aero with Michelin pilot sport 4

 

[buruburu]

The best way to check for battery degradation is likely get the battery all the way down to 0% or something ridiculously low like 1% then charge it to full and measure how much kWh was dumped into the battery.

Theoretically, by going 0 to 100%, you'll know how much total capacity is available. After that you'd want to drive it back down to 0/1% and record how many miles you drove. This will give you a baseline on how what your average mi/kWh for that route.

Finally, charge it back to full again and see if the total kWh matches the previous charging session.

Should you do this, probably not cause you never want to put the battery into those states as it's really bad for the battery. but even if you do a 20% to 85% charge and figure out how much kWh that is, you can keep tracking that number and if it starts going down, then that should be an indicator that your battery is degrading.


TLDR, You need to track how much kWh it takes to go from x% to y%. Two ways to get this number, a charger that tells you how much kWh or from the car's instrumentation when it gives you average energy consumption. However energy consumption has several other factors that can affect it such as speed / temp / weight / etc....

 

[Fish Fingers]

I don’t think it matters too much.. battery degradation will occur no matter what.. even when the car is never charged..

my model S has almost exclusively been supercharged for 100.000 miles and still have only lost 15% after 4 years.. last two years maybe 1% each year..

Taycan on the other hand gets charged at home.. 11kw AC.
Just use it without thinking about it is my recommendation.

Interesting.

I suppose its just because its new technology to most of us that we are interested?

We wouldn't expect an ICE car engine to be as efficient after 100k miles, as it was when new.

Question:
If the battery has degraded 15% is the cars performance just the same as it was at 100% (but it just has less range)?

 

[Stoneageman]

Interesting.

I suppose its just because its new technology to most of us that we are interested?

We wouldn't expect an ICE car engine to be as efficient after 100k miles, as it was when new.

Question:
If the battery has degraded 15% is the cars performance just the same as it was at 100% (but it just has less range)?

I think at peak charge it will perform the same but the performance will drop off much faster I assume. I think the problem I have with EV as much as I love them is that the battery is a consumable. We are spending a lot of money on a consumable. Engines are not a consumable, sure the mpg drops a little but performance largely stays the same. When they can make batteries to be either a non consumable or be it be cheap to replace the bits that are consumed, then I think people would be less worried about degradation and range.

 

[proficient_mathematician]

I think you can overthink these things. I'd rather charge my car whenever and however I need and not worry that much about degradation. Driving hard also heats the battery, but no-one's going to avoid doing that, right?

 

[Stoneageman]

I think you can overthink these things. I'd rather charge my car whenever and however I need and not worry that much about degradation. Driving hard also heats the battery, but no-one's going to avoid doing that, right?

I guess you are right, though it just feels bad that you know within a year or two you will lose part of the battery due to the fact that it is a consumable.

 

[herminal]

Question:
If the battery has degraded 15% is the cars performance just the same as it was at 100% (but it just has less range)?

Yes.. ofcourse.. only when you are at 10% SOC or lower do you notice a serious drop in performance..

BTW : I notice that between 80-100% Soc the degradation seems to ‘reside’. After charging to 100% the range drops fairly quick.. much quicker than when new. below 50% Soc I can still achieve the range as if ther car was new… maybe this is a Tesla thing though.

 

[Ozzy]

After 2 years of driving my taycan
4s non performance plus(19.000km)
I only use 11kw charger at home and NEVER used dc speed charger anywhere
And only charge to %85
Unfortunately i lost %9 of battery health
Its very very inconvenient whatever i did correct didnt work it is very sad
I dont know if its normal of battery degradation.

I wish I could do something about it but no I dont think so…

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