Hate for electrics saddens me.

[ben1]

Next to my Taycan, I ride an electric motorcycle.
The typical motorcycle enthusiast is rather negative about electric motorcycles. Seems to be a quite conservative kind of people. They say it is bad, even if the have never ever ridden an electric motorcyle. Just because it does not make noise. (Which is in fact not true. It does make noise while accelerating and it is fun to hear the motor sound getting higher and higher while going faster)

I always end talks like that with "You should try one, you will like it".

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[smoothound]

I don't get hate for EV's over here, but there is a huge lack of knowledge and a lot of disinformation about them in the UK. Right wing newspapers/media run a load of awful stories with badly researched or totally false claims and it really does influence people.

+1

 

[laua]

Not trying to be pedantic, but... carbon emissions are of course a problem, because they lead to climate change / global warming, and yes tailpipe emissions cause local particulate toxicity. Tire emissions are toxic particles that get into the water and poison animal and plant life, and they are directly proportional to vehicle weight, and perhaps even more if we're talking about the torque of EVs. If I wasn't driving a 5,500lb Taycan, I would be driving a 3,500lb 911, "emitting" *at least* 35% less tire.

Check out this article, from a reputable news source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/clim...ire-brake-tailpipes-emissions-pollution-cars/

To quote: "...Wear and tear on tires and brakes have been shown to produce increasingly more particle pollution, by mass, than car exhaust systems did in several real-world and test scenarios. Some of the particles are large enough to see with our eyes. Others are fine particles (known as PM 2.5, with diameters up to 2.5 microns) and ultrafine particles (known as PM 0.1, with diameters of 100 nanometers), which can enter through our bloodstream and harm our organs."

So... you are saying that tire emissions are insignificant. But the article above says they already outpace tailpipe emissions in California. I don't consider that "pure deflection/whataboutism." It seems like a real problem, and one of the many things that gets worse instead of better when we switch to EVs.

I still feel that *overall* EVs are a cleaner and more fun option, but brushing aside real data showing real issues is exactly the problem we are facing in this debate.

I’ve come across a few similar articles. Intuitively heavier is obviously worse, but curious to know how different it really is if I’m not flooring it every time I accelerate. Ie this article (https://www.earth.com/news/hidden-costs-electric-vehicle-tires-emit-20-more-pollution/) quotes an “ up to” 20% increase in tire emissions due to higher torque, acceleration and weight. Realistically, I never get a chance to floor the accelerator and just inch along with the cars in front of me (I live near NYC so imagine the traffic).

Under such “normal” driving conditions, I wonder if tire emissions are anywhere worse than all the other big ICE cars around? On top, a lot of braking is regen so there is less brake dust.

 

[Leverage]

We get the same disinformation here, usually some of these talking points.

I got a lot "don't put you car in your garage or your house might burn down..."

Usually my response to all those points is the same: "That's why I got a porsche..." and then leave it at that. LOL

 

[f1eng]

As a petrol head who designed and/or ran Formula 1 cars for 35 years I get a lot of disbelief from people I know.
Most miss the noise (I miss the noise of the high revving normally aspirated engines in F1 now we have high turbo boost hybrids) which is bonkers in normal use.

I just point out the better power curve, no need for loads of gear ratios or clutch and ability to take extra power for a while without stalling.

My Taycan is lighter than a Range Rover and similar ICE blobs anyway..

For a fun sports car I still favour an IC engine but not because it is better but because driving it well is more satisfying since its shortcomings make it harder. But it must be a high revving non turbocharged engine with a 6-speed ‘box, 3-pedals and no driver over-rides - ruling out modern ones.

I also found Formula 1 to be MUCH better before hybrid engines, but since big money is more important than sport hybrid was introduced to keep the big car companies spending.

 

[f1eng]

Probably.
A lot of IC engined cars have added faux sound coming from the stereo already and a sound tube from engine bay to cockpit too (which is real of course).

Enthusiasts and journalists often don’t notice and think it is real.

 

[optik382]

I am somewhat bewildered why the argument of toxic particle emissions from tires and brakes is being attached to EVs. Even if EVs contribute 15-30% more per car, EVs don’t even make up 1% of cars on the road in the US. If rivers and streams are becoming poisoned, it’s certainly due to the last century of cars and trucks on the road and not because of a relatively small number of EVs in the last decade.

It’s nice to see when market pressures push industries to develop less polluting tech. Just weird that EVs are being blamed.

I see it as one of those "next highest nail" engineering problems. Tailpipe emissions? Solved. So now what's the next thing that needs to be fixed for BEVs to be cleaner? Tires? Brakes? Batteries? Once you solve the biggest problem, the next problem becomes the biggest problem.

 

[WuffvonTrips]

In today's Guardian...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/04/electric-cars-culture-wars-evs

 

[snstevens]

I’ve come across a few similar articles. Intuitively heavier is obviously worse, but curious to know how different it really is if I’m not flooring it every time I accelerate. Ie this article (https://www.earth.com/news/hidden-costs-electric-vehicle-tires-emit-20-more-pollution/) quotes an “ up to” 20% increase in tire emissions due to higher torque, acceleration and weight. Realistically, I never get a chance to floor the accelerator and just inch along with the cars in front of me (I live near NYC so imagine the traffic).

Under such “normal” driving conditions, I wonder if tire emissions are anywhere worse than all the other big ICE cars around? On top, a lot of braking is regen so there is less brake dust.

I agree that driving conditions matter, and that in stop and go traffic you're likely not producing more particles than an ICE car. Of course, as with the DOE Study I mentioned in another thread, the collection of data for tire emissions will require a Drive Cycle to be defined, and then have both ICE and EV use the same Drive Cycle while measuring the results.

But I'm surprised that this question of tire particles is such a BFD! Burning 1 gallon of gas in an ICE car consumes ~6 pounds (yes pounds) of carbon, generating ~20 pounds (again, pounds) of CO2. Let's assume that the 1 gallon takes you 30 miles - how much tire particulate matter are we talking about over that distance? According to the referenced article, an ICE car sheds 116 mg of tire waste per mile, and an EV sheds 140 mg each mile, however, driving the EV avoids generating 0.67 pounds of CO2 in that same 1 mile distance.

So what should we be talking about?

 

[snstevens]

As a petrol head who designed and/or ran Formula 1 cars for 35 years I get a lot of disbelief from people I know.
Most miss the noise (I miss the noise of the high revving normally aspirated engines in F1 now we have high turbo boost hybrids) which is bonkers in normal use.

I just point out the better power curve, no need for loads of gear ratios or clutch and ability to take extra power for a while without stalling.

My Taycan is lighter than a Range Rover and similar ICE blobs anyway..

For a fun sports car I still favour an IC engine but not because it is better but because driving it well is more satisfying since its shortcomings make it harder. But it must be a high revving non turbocharged engine with a 6-speed ‘box, 3-pedals and no driver over-rides - ruling out modern ones.

I also found Formula 1 to be MUCH better before hybrid engines, but since big money is more important than sport hybrid was introduced to keep the big car companies spending.

I am nowhere close to your skill set, but I grew up driving stickshift ICE vehicles, and I miss that sorely. When my sons became 16 they had to learn to drive stick in order to take their driver's tests, and they always impressed the person testing them.

So I miss this aspect of driving, which is why I was interested in the article about a Clutch Operated Manual Transmission for EVs. Of course the experience will not be the same, but I've always thought it would be fun to control both the engine torque and the regeneration, especially when driving downhill or around corners.

I think Porsche did the right thing by giving us 3 different Regen settings - I'd simply enjoy having more options.

 

[utsteve98]

Every time I hear a 4-cyl Honda Civic with an obnoxiously loud exhaust that goes nowhere when at full throttle, I can’t help but think “i can’t wait till we get to a 100% EV world.”

 

[Jhenson29]

Of course the experience will not be the same, but I've always thought it would be fun to control both the engine torque and the regeneration, especially when driving downhill or around corners.

Regen is torque also, just negative torque, and it is controlled; by the brake pedal. Accelerator pedal is positive torque and regen pedal is negative torque. And I’m not sure what that has to do with a manual?

Asking because I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts and what the connection was here as I am also looking forward to what may come in the manual EV space.

 

[snstevens]

Regen is torque also, just negative torque, and it is controlled; by the brake pedal. Accelerator pedal is positive torque and regen pedal is negative torque. And I’m not sure what that has to do with a manual?

Asking because I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts and what the connection was here as I am also looking forward to what may come in the manual EV space.

As a starting point, I'd love to try using paddle shifters to control the torque/regen, and see how that feels.

When I was at PECLA driving a 718 GT4RS I loved being able to downshift when getting closer to the entry point of a turn. When I drove the Taycan 4s on the same track my only option was to hit the brake, and I just don't feel as connected to the car doing that.

If Porsche would simply "burn the boats" (thanks @daveo4EV) and go all in on EVs I think they could be very creative in offering a more driver-centric EV experience.

 

[Jhenson29]

As a starting point, I'd love to try using paddle shifters to control the torque/regen, and see how that feels.

When I was at PECLA driving a 718 GT4RS I loved being able to downshift when getting closer to the entry point of a turn. When I drove the Taycan 4s on the same track my only option was to hit the brake, and I just don't feel as connected to the car doing that.

If Porsche would simply "burn the boats" (thanks @daveo4EV) and go all in on EVs I think they could be very creative in offering a more driver-centric EV experience.

I see. So, would the paddle regen be a function of how far you push it like the brake pedal or a function of speed and “gear selection” like a PDK (would also apply to manual). If the former, I’m not sure I see much difference between that and just using the brake pedal. It just becomes a hand brake. The latter would be more interesting, to me; but a niche market, I’m sure.

Or maybe there’s something entirely novel that can/should be done instead. I don’t know.

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