Scared to ask... anyone tempted by Model S Plaid?

JimBob

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Back to your old pejorative style of responses? You are just as tribal as any fanboy out there who has lost the ability to think for himself. No wonder we end up with crap lying politicians, because the tribe doesn't question them.

Efficiency shows in the Taycan versus the new crop of cars coming out. It is just not competitive with the ranges now being offered.
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kreshi

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We are in a forum about a Porsche sportscar that ranges from about 500hp to almost 800hp. And one of main issues people have is the range compared to a model 3 frog or cruiseships like lucid and EQS. Man.. the EV Boom has brought some weird people into the high performance car market…
 

daveo4EV

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Yes, the 800V architecture, and the motor system which can run flat out continuously comes from the Le Mans race car programme.
based on my experience this is simply not true - the Taycan can not run flat out for more than about 12-14 minutes - about the same amount of time I was able to get with my 2018 Model 3 - which is about 50% battery - my personal experience and the Taycan throttling power once the battery reached 132F on a 58F ambient temperature day does not support your assertions.

the Taycan is good for about 5-6 laps at Laguna Seca - or about 2 full laps of “the ring”…after that battery/motor thermals will require it to ”take a rest” - this is hardly the technology “from Le Mans race car program” - but it can not compete or complete a full 25 min HPDE session next to a Miata (or your Prius) which can easily run for the full 25-30 sessions min flat out.

to date I have not seen any actual advantages to the 800V architecture that is not currently matched by existing products from Tesla at 400V…I understand there should be advantages, I understand the math and the engineering, I’m just saying I can not point to anything about the Taycan that is actually ‘better’ because of 800V.

congrats on drinking Porsche’s marketing koolaid in one gulp - my factual and personal experience contradicts these assertions. I welcome anyone coming out to Laguna Seca and showing me their Taycan running ”flat out” for a continous 25 min session at full pace (1:45 lap times or better) - it can’t be done with current production Taycan’s - lap 6 or 7 you’ll be down on power when the battery reaches 132F and Porsche’s software throttles power down to save the battery for the 8 year/100,000 mile warranty - but you’re welcome to try…

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...d-on-driving-lap-data-impressions-added.2923/


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the above photo is the Taycan’s battery at 127F on a 58F day at Laguna Seca - after I had to leave the track 1/2 way during a 25 min HPDE session when my 2020 Taycan Turbo throttled power (down about 60%) when the battery reached 132F after 5 or 6 laps…hardly “full pace continously” - but better than the 2013-2020 era Model S’s - and about equal to a 2018 Model 3 (which can run a similar number of laps at full pace until it also needs a rest).

now compared to the Model S (not the Plaid) the stamina of the Taycan is a major step forward - the 2013-2020 era Model S can’t even complete a single lap @ Laguna at full pace (it dies about turn 6 on a partial lap) - the 400V based Model 3 can do about 5-6 laps at full pace then get throttled (about the same as my 2020 Taycan) - so we have progress - Taycan vs. Model S way better - so a 2020 Taycan is better than a 2013 Model S, and about the same as a 2018 Model 3 in terms of full pace stamina…no doubt this is progress - but it fails to meet the bar of “can run full out at full pace continuously” - keep trying you’ll get there eventually.

in the mean time I’m enjoy’ing my Taycan and it is a better car than any of my Tesla’s - but let’s not overstate what it can actually accomplish.
 
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XLR82XS

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to date I have not seen any actual advantages to the 800V architecture that is not currently matched by existing products from Tesla at 400V…I understand there should be advantages, I understand the math and the engineering, I’m just saying I can not point to anything about the Taycan that is actually ‘better’ because of 800V.
Good points dave. At least with 800V there are some weight savings and decent charge speeds.
 

daveo4EV

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At least with 800V there are some weight savings and decent charge speeds
weight savings - I’m not sure - given the Taycan weighs slightly more than my 2014 Model S P85D (which had better usable range than my Taycan)

charging speeds is so far the only place I can factually state the Taycan is hands down better than any competitor (if you can get the EA charging station to work) - the Taycan is quite simply the fastest charging EV available in series production on the market today - that is a fact. The real advantage is not the peak charging speed but rather the sustained non-tapered speed with Taycan staying above 100 kW charge rate well into the low 90% SOC - it is simply , factually, and provably the fastest charging EV on the market right now.

1:36:58 PM - real world EA chargers @ willows, ca in Sept. 2021

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262 kW @ 1:41:26 PM

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88% SOC @ 2:05:28

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so 262 kW peak charge rate (I saw 264 kW but missed the pic) - but 4% to 88% from 1:35:xx to 2:05:28 PM - this was a real world example of the best EV charging session I've had in over 8-9 years of EV experience and way way way faster than my Tesla's ever did…Taycan is the fastest charging EV you can buy on the open market right now.

as to weight savings - I’m unconvinced with a 5,100 lbs 4 door sports sedan - maybe it would’ve weighed 5,700 lbs if it wasn’t 800V??? The Battery still overheats, and it has very little stamina - I’ve yet to see any demonstrable “weight savings” from 800V technology - I know it should be there - but honestly and factually what weight savings is there in the final product because of 800V? I welcome data…

I know and understand 800V “should” be better - I have the engineering background - but to date honestly I lack any measuable evidence it actually _IS_ better in the Taycan product…

beyond charging - what evidence based data can anyone share where 800V is tangebly better than 400V altenatives in the Taycan as delivered as a product? And please don’t quote Porsche marketing - show me how/why the Taycan is better because 800V? Range, efficiency, stamina, thermals, acceleration? None of these characteristics are quantifiably better vs. 400V competitors…so I lack confidence 800V being better actually matters in a fully realized series production product as opposed to an engineering bench w/Oscilloscope…
 
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JimBob

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We are in a forum about a Porsche sportscar that ranges from about 500hp to almost 800hp. And one of main issues people have is the range compared to a model 3 frog or cruiseships like lucid and EQS. Man.. the EV Boom has brought some weird people into the high performance car market…
And time marches on and the competition improves. So Porsche should just sit on its ass saying I am the best? And the fans "yup you are".
 

kreshi

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And time marches on and the competition improves. So Porsche should just sit on its ass saying I am the best? And the fans "yup you are".
What does that have to do with what I said? Rename the forum to „cryingaboutanythingandeverything.com“
 

JimBob

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What does that have to do with what I said? Rename the forum to „cryingaboutanythingandeverything.com“
What did you say?

We are in a Porsche EV forum and its weird people who criticize?

Continually amazed that when someone says that it's not all unicorns and lollipops that they feel their car and themselves are under some sort of attack. The Taycan is not going away, its got some great strengths but the new cars are moving the goal posts.
 

kreshi

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What did you say?

We are in a Porsche EV forum and its weird people who criticize?

Continually amazed that when someone says that it's not all unicorns and lollipops that they feel their car and themselves are under some sort of attack. The Taycan is not going away, its got some great strengths but the new cars are moving the goal posts.
So that’s your take on the Taycan and this forum? Complain about ANYTHING and yell out as many times as possible how much better others are doing it? You do that with your spouse too? Complain everyday and list things that others are doing better, repeatedly? The argument that nobody tolerates criticizm is poor and lazy.
 

JimBob

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So that’s your take on the Taycan and this forum? Complain about ANYTHING and yell out as many times as possible how much better others are doing it? You do that with your spouse too? Complain everyday and list things that others are doing better, repeatedly? The argument that nobody tolerates criticizm is poor and lazy.
What does my spouse have to do with this?
 

ampitup

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No! Never, never, never.
 

feye

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based on my experience this is simply not true - the Taycan can not run flat out for more than about 12-14 minutes...
Limitations of the battery/bms, not the motor/800V system right?

If that's the case @f1eng is still right, no?
 

daveo4EV

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Limitations of the battery/bms, not the motor/800V system right?

If that's the case @f1eng is still right, no?
we’ll never know.

Porsche marketing is pretty clear that 800V allows for less weight, greater cooling, and better thermals - and yet the Taycan can’t run more/less than a 400V 2018 Model 3 at the same track - due to thermal limitations on a very mild ambient temperature day (58F - you’d think this would be ideal conditions to may be run for more than 5 or 6 laps?)

given the black box the taycan is we have no idea what is the limiting factor - what we do know is 800V doesn’t seem to offer much advantage on battery thermals.

But I’ll stand by my assertion I’ve yet to find a defined unique benefit to the 800V system that can be isolated and highlighted vs. competitive products on the market that are not 800V

the Taycan is demonstrably better than the 2013-2020 era Model S products from a battery thermal and repeated and sustained performance point of view.

My 2020 Taycan Turbo is about the same as Model 3 performance w/Track mode from a track point of view - both can only run for about 15 min “full pace”. Hardcore Tesla fanboi’s will tell you the Model 3 can actually run a bit longer and harder than the Taycan - and they are not entirely wrong and not entirely right either - let’s call it a draw because both vehicles are pretty limited vs. virtually gas car in this context.

Plaid - well I have no idea what Plaid is good at besides a drag race, but it has done an impressive one time lap @ Laguna - but I have no data about Plaid’s “stamina”

400V vs. 800V is a distinction without a difference to date in any measurable product focused way that anyone can point to in a fully realized product.
 
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feye

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Back to your old pejorative style of responses? You are just as tribal as any fanboy out there who has lost the ability to think for himself. No wonder we end up with crap lying politicians, because the tribe doesn't question them.

Efficiency shows in the Taycan versus the new crop of cars coming out. It is just not competitive with the ranges now being offered.
I agree, Porsche need to upgrade their battery soon. But efficiency is still very good, based on my experience:

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...from-anyone-who-has-done-this.4490/post-64346

Taycan looks still pretty good in here:

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html

If you drive 21" tires, you will have less range, no?
 

daveo4EV

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also Porsche is tipping their hand with the recent MIssion R statement with some tantelizing quotes - namely the oil cooling of the battery & EV motors to allow for 30 minutes of “full performance”

that is a back handed way of saying oil cooling is required to achieve 30 min of full performance - which means the Lemans vehicle didn’t have full performance because of the 800V system alone - it requires further systems support to achieve 30 min - which also means it’s not “continuous”…

there is not yet a consumer advantage to 800V - now Porsche may be building to something - but at the moment the advantages on the engineering bench have yet to make any significant headway into the actual product.

and while 30 min is impressive it’s nothing compared to gasoline and would be a joke in the context of 24 hours @ Leman’s - so again I’m not sure what advantage we’re talking about.

given the differences already announced for the Mission R - I”m not sure one can draw the conclusion the current 800V motors and drive trains “can run continuously at full power”…certainly if that’s the case no one on the MIssionR team seems to be briefed on that capability? And if I’m oil cooling something, who’s to say such a cooling system couldn’t sufficiently cool a 400V system?

I’m still seeing no actual advantage…I’d love to find one however I could point to…

the problem with any “better” system vs. an established standard is that people dramtically under-estimate the power of relentless incremental improvement enhancing the “inferior” system - but time and time again I’ve seen the technically “weaker” system continue to pace or slightly lead the “better” system due to massive investment in incremental improvements to overcome the limitations of the technically inferior system…

400V vs. 800V any engineer can tell you the advantages…translating those advantages into a meaningful difference in a 5,100 lbs street legal road car - well lets just say I doubt even Porsche can really tell you in any meaningful non-marketing way how it actually ended up a benefit.

I think it’s a bit like PCCB‘s vs. Steel Brakes - PCCB’s are clearly better - but not in any way that is usable or advantagious for any street driving adn only barely better for track driving and then in context of track driving only if you’re going to be on track for 30 min or more.

PCCB’s better that steel? No question yes.
Do PCCB’s advantages actually manifest themselves in any way in the context of street legal car? No absolutely not.

SCSI vs. IDE - orginally IDE was the cheap crap - and SCSI HD’s were the better system - 3-4 years of relentless incremental IDE improvement an boom IDE over took SCSI and simply killed it - never under-estimate relentless incremental improvements that can overtake a ”superior” system…

I feel the same way about 800V vs. 400V - sure it’s better on paper…show me again where the Taycan has an advantage because of it?

I’m not convinced the entire industry relentlessly improving 400V systems won’t overtake the advantages of an 800V system - and to date early in this little drama the 800V product really don’t seem to offer any tangible concrete consumer visible advantage vs. the 400V systems.

we’ll see how this plays out - but at the moment 800V is bragging rights for something you can’t see, touch or feel…or even meaningfully demonstrate in a product context…

I know this because my Taycan was down on power when the 400V model 3 passed me between turns 6 & 8 @ Laguna…
 
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