Scared to ask... anyone tempted by Model S Plaid?

f10tt

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Yeah I've heard the tech argument before, and as someone who works in the Tech industry, I don't buy into it. I think too many people get enamored by shiny tech and ignore systematic quality and service issues, wasting both money and mental energy on both.

If I want to watch a movie in my Taycan while it's charging, I'll just buy an iPad with a 5G connection and keep it in the frunk.
As someone in government policy, all that shiny shit can be regulated at the swipe of a pen and it will happen. Hell, I've written leg that includes it. She's not a car person. If it's what she wants, she can have it. I could give a single shit while it's still under warranty, but I will never buy another X. We have a Model Y Performance take home right now and for $20k less than our X it's built 10x better.

Yeah, it really needs to be said that Tesla is more of a great research technology company that just so happens to make mediocre cars. Before my Taycan I had a 2013 Model S P85, and up until the day I sold it last year, it was still getting updated, and TBH had better tech and features than a well equipped Taycan nearly 8 years newer. But that's where it ended. It was straight line fast and surprisingly reliable, but the build quality and panel gaps were horrendous, and certainly nothing near how a car in 2013 that cost 110k back then should have looked in terms of fit and finish.

I would Recommend a Model 3 or Y to someone looking for a car at the 50k price point all day long. Even then their finish isn't as good as cars in those price points, but the gap isn't as bad as it is in the S and X next to peers, and total package is hard to beat.
Agreed. I had never driven a Y before last night - entirely different handling and built vehicle.
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JimBob

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What I’m learning from some people in here is that horsepower and 0-60 times make a car, nothing else. Oh and tech, lots of it, doesn’t matter if it’s stable or not. Fart sounds and a cruise control that might make you crash into another car or wall. Doesn’t matter, because it’s cool tech.

Man Porsche has no idea how to make cars…
Yes, Porsche is going to have to learn how to make cars in the brave new world. Farts are just a distraction. Can't use the parts bin to make a new car. Needs to get control of battery tech fast. Reduce product cycle times until the tech stabilizes. Learn how to do OTA (probably in a parallel universe).

The car business is littered with the corpses of companies who couldn't or wouldn't adapt. One decade king of the mountain. Next decade toast.
 

f1eng

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I looked into a Tesla a couple of times.
I dislike the interior of all of them enough to make them a no-no regardless of performance or range.
Apart from its size and weight the Taycan appeals enormously to me in every way.
I am in the UK so drag race opportunities/tradition are absent so the one thing the Plaid impresses at is of absolute zero interest to me.
 

Mr.Smith

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What I’m learning from some people in here is that horsepower and 0-60 times make a car, nothing else. Oh and tech, lots of it, doesn’t matter if it’s stable or not. Fart sounds and a cruise control that might make you crash into another car or wall. Doesn’t matter, because it’s cool tech.

Man Porsche has no idea how to make cars…
Yes, Porsche is going to have to learn how to make cars in the brave new world. Farts are just a distraction. Can't use the parts bin to make a new car. Needs to get control of battery tech fast. Reduce product cycle times until the tech stabilizes. Learn how to do OTA (probably in a parallel universe).

The car business is littered with the corpses of companies who couldn't or wouldn't adapt. One decade king of the mountain. Next decade toast.
I think there needs to be a little more understanding of car manufacturering, the business of selling cars, why car companies fail.
You are using a lot the Blackberry was disrupted by Apple and software business theory. These don't necessarily apply to the auto industry.

The foundation of Tesla is that 1 man is so brilliant, the greatest mind in the universe, that understands how to build cars, has technology no one has, to make the best car on the planet, much cheaper than anyone else, with a lowest R&D budget in the auto industry.
There are these dinosaur companies like Porsche, VW, Toyota that are so inept that they can't build a better car than Tesla, for the same price.

The Taycan is a better car than a Tesla, but one would need to pay 3x more for a Taycan Turbo than an equivalent Model 3P for the same performance.
How?

Auto business is: Very high R&D + massive cost (physical factory, high human labor) that needs to be spread out across as many units, sharing as many components as possible.
Cost control by increasing product longevity, residual values & reduce warranty expenses.
All of this to maximize Profits.
The car business is littered with companies that couldn't execute on these.

Out of all the OEMs out there, VW Group and a few others are poised to last, flourish in the auto industry because they can accomplish this.
 

02bluesuperroo

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You're going to link vehicle safety data published on Tesla's own website which isn't even independently verified? From a vehicle manufacturer whose website is chock full of unsubstantiated or misleading claims for things as simple as range, price and 0-60 times?

There is currently a federal investigation into Tesla's safety record.

https://www.consumerreports.org/aut...tigation-tesla-autopilot-crashes-a6996819019/
 


manitou202

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You're going to link vehicle safety data published on Tesla's own website which isn't even independently verified? From a vehicle manufacturer whose website is chock full of unsubstantiated or misleading claims for things as simple as range, price and 0-60 times?

There is currently a federal investigation into Tesla's safety record.

https://www.consumerreports.org/aut...tigation-tesla-autopilot-crashes-a6996819019/
Tesla compares itself to general automobile crash data which obviously includes millions of older vehicles without any modern active safety features. The average age of a vehicle on the road in the US is 12.1 years old.

"By comparison, NHTSA’s most recent data shows that in the United States there is an automobile crash every 484,000 miles."

I would like to see how Tesla compares to Volvo, or Audi for 2016-2021 model years. That is a more fair comparison.
 

Mr.Smith

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Here is a Plaid.

Check out the cheap electrical tape around the wiring when it's suppose to be in protective tubing.
When they go to this level to make car, imagine all the other underlying issues and safety.
This is the best car Tesla has ever made and one of the most expensive.

At least it does the quarter mile in the 8s

Porsche Taycan Scared to ask... anyone tempted by Model S Plaid? 20210830_085059
Porsche Taycan Scared to ask... anyone tempted by Model S Plaid? 20210830_085020
 

riburn3

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The foundation of Tesla is that 1 man is so brilliant, the greatest mind in the universe, that understands how to build cars, has technology no one has, to make the best car on the planet, much cheaper than anyone else, with a lowest R&D budget in the auto industry.
There are these dinosaur companies like Porsche, VW, Toyota that are so inept that they can't build a better car than Tesla, for the same price.
In all fairness just about every manufacturer out there, especially the ones you mentioned, makes a superior car to Tesla. Tesla wrecks everyone in technology, but the actual "kick the tires" vehicles Tesla makes are of mediocre build quality and materials used are non consistent with a car in the same price point. Even the new Plaid model, which is their highest trim car right now, is plagued with the same issues their cheapest car deals with, like poor paint jobs and panel alignment issues. Doug Demuro in his review found several quality issues that were atrocious for a car of that price.

I have kept 2 Tesla's in my garage for the better part of the last half decade, own stock in the brand, and overall love Tesla and what it has done for the automotive world (like we wouldn't be here on this forum without Tesla), but as companies continue to turn their eye to electric vehicles, and dump R&D into them, Tesla is going to have a tough time if build quality doesn't improve. Their advantage right now is they are really the only mass production EV maker out there, but that is slowly changing as just about every manufacturer is seeing high demand for their EV products as well.
 


manitou202

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Developing cars is nothing like developing phones.

While Tesla has proven that software is going to be very important to vehicles in the future, and arguably has the best vehicle software at the moment, they still face a massive up hill battle over the next decade.

The biggest complexity with cars is manufacturing. All iPhones are assembled within a handful of factories. Compare this to Tesla who has two factories, and will be turning on two more shortly. Even with four massive factories built, they will still only make 4-6 models, with a total output around 1.5-2 million vehicles per year. This is 1/5th VW's production capacity but narrowly focused on only a couple of models

Tesla claims to be vertically integrated which is nothing new. Many automakers used to be vertically integrated but over time it has proven to be more complex, and is difficult to maintain all of your production capabilities internally. Thus most today use massive networks of suppliers to produce the high number of vehicles and models required.

Tesla struggles today with quality, and new product development. They have only developed and launched 4 vehicles (two based on the same platform) and 2 large model refreshes. Compare this to the VW group which launches dozens of new/refreshed models every single year. They will need to dramatically grow the product development teams, along with improving quality, and offering many additional features like trim and paint options. In theory if Tesla has a large NPD group, they could be launching the Cybertruck, New Model S/X, Roadster, Semi, a lower cost Tesla (below the Model 3), and work on Model 3/Y refresh. But they don't seem to have the bandwidth. This is less complex than a single brand at VW.

So the big question is Tesla more likely to catch a giant like VW in the next ten years in terms of manufacturing and product development capabilities? Or is VW more likely to catch Tesla in software development?

Obviously Tesla doesn't only face VW. There are a lot of massive companies now getting into the EV space, which have much larger pockets and resources than Tesla. The gap may closer sooner than most people expect.
 

charliemathilde

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The drag strip is the Plaid friend. The Ring, not so much

yeah, it’s a great first showing, but for a 1000hp, it struggled and shows it really doesn’t have anything else. it Is a big improvement for Tesla, and it puts Porsche in a competitive spot. The traditional manufacturers really need to up their game.

This is just the beginning of the EV ring wars. And in that sense I’m optimistic we see some really cool things over the decade.
 

Harbor_Dawg

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Tesla service quality largely depends on where you live and how much traffic they get, because there's no standard that the service centers are held to and they haven't really expanded enough to meet the growing service needs of a large customer base.

Where I live in the SF Bay Area, my friends who bought Model S back in 2016 described a luxury dealership experience when they got service. Appointments were readily available, and if the car was in need of service for several days, they got a loaner. Just like at Mercedes, BMW, or Porsche.

Now he says the entire place is full of Model Y and Model 3 owners. Getting a service appointment can take weeks, the super chargers are always busy, and if your car needs to be serviced for a few days, they hand you Uber credits which run out quickly. It's completely deteriorated to the level of Toyota or Honda.

I don't see much of a future for Model S or Model X. The Tesla fanboys will continue to buy them, but anyone comparing these cars to Porsche or Audi will really wonder what they're paying for. Most of my friends who bought new Model S's are all looking at the Taycan.
Sadly I have to agree. I want to replace my (now damages) 2017 Model S, but just can't pull the trigger on a 2022 since I can only get it with a steering "yoke" that seems unfortunate if not dangerous. And I'd say the service experience isn't at the level of Honda or Toyota - it's significantly below that.
 

feye

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So the big question is Tesla more likely to catch a giant like VW in the next ten years in terms of manufacturing and product development capabilities?
Way too much fanboy talk.

T need at least a decade if not longer to get half way decent quality. And with software they playing catch-up with the Chinese.

VW knows what is going on in China, they playing catch-up with software, too.
 

JimBob

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You need to stand back to see the big picture. Tesla has been making 400v batteries for many years and has a highly developed power train that is very efficient with those batteries.

Porsche introduced 800v batteries only a couple of years ago which required them to design and build a whole new power train which didn't exist previously. It is simply not as efficient as Telsa's at this point in time. You will need to wait for generation 2 to see increases in efficiencies. In the mean time Lucid is demonstrating what happens when you a pair a highly efficient power train with a 900v battery.
 

feye

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Porsche introduced 800v batteries only a couple of years ago which required them to design and build a whole new power train which didn't exist previously. It is simply not as efficient as Telsa's at this point in time.
Not my experience. Do you have proof or is this silly fanboy talk?

Porsche collected lots of experience in their racing department for years before they developed the Taycan.
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