Dlurker20

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Thanks for your answers [email protected], PanamaraFrank and Chris 911.
I do have cars that I use year-round, Cayenne Turbo 2014 and 997.2 Targa4S (it's 12th winter !). With good 12V batteries there is no issue. Even the 911 is actually quite fun in winter (it's AWD) except in winter storms. But I have been getting crazy looks for 12 winters for using a 911 in winter over here :)

As I already got summer cars (Boxster S 2004 and GT4: I cannot even get out of my inclined driveway in winter due to poor winter traction with snow tires) I do not want a summer only Taycan. If I cannot take it to the cabin in winter, it would not be very useful.

I have doubts about EV around here due to our climate, but the government has announced a ban on new ICE cars for 2035. So being an engineer I am thinking about getting one to form my own opinion. But first I have to make sure I would not damage the battery right away if I leave the EV outside at -30°C for multiple days unplug. I will certainly get horrible range, but it is part of the experiment I guess. And I do have the heated garage at home where I can thaw all my cars regularly, as they do all froze up over time (yes windshield washer nodes, wipers, mirrors, sensors, you name it !)
I am in Minnesota where it’s below 0C for at least half of the year. My Taycan has been my daily driver since September (after an interminable wait!). I find it absolutely phenomenal in the cold with great handling and the lovely precook/heat timers coupled with being able to hit the button at unscheduled stops (like going into the store for a while, and come out to a luxuriously warm car). The mileage definitely takes a hit but that’s something that can be accommodated (most people drive less than 30 miles per day, and for long vacation drives it definitely requires extra planning).
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AxelC

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Happy New Year everyone! Hope that 2021 resolves both COVID-19 and Taycan crap software (two VERY different category of problems, have to admit... :D).

I promised to update how our road trip to Northern Finland for holidays went, so below some stats and observations:

Vehicle: Taycan 4S with Performance Battery+ (i.e. gross 93.4 kWh)

Tyres: Nokian Hakkapeliitta R3 (=no studs) 245/45R20 103R (Rear pair: XL) with 2.8 bars (40.6 psi) and wheels: Nitro Tourismo FF (20 spokes) = regular, not aero (see the attached pic).

Pax and cargo load: max 350 kg (skis went with our ICE Audi :whew:)

Driving mode(s): Continuously on Range.
Switched to Normal (=4WD and increased ground clearance because of snow) only when passing other cars - which I did quite a lot, have to admit... 😈

Total trip: 871.4 kilometers (541,5 miles), charging only twice (= three legs) with average consumption of 24.8 kWh/100 km (39.9 kWh / 100 mi) and average speed of 80 km/h (49.7 mile/h).

1st leg:
288.4 km (179.7 mi), started with 96% SOC, arrived with 14%. Temperatures varied between +2 to -2 Celsius (37 to 28F). Driving conditions started with moderate to heavy rain, then turned to slush/snow and ended with dry skies and dry snow/ice on roads.

Average consumption: 25.3 kWh/100 km (40.7kWh/100 mi), average speed 87 km/h (54mi/h).

1st charging:
79,5 kWh / 1hr 6 mins, battery temperature 20C/68F when started charging.

2nd leg:
325.6 km (202.3 mi), started with 97% SOC, arrived with 9%.
Temperatures between -2 to -5 celcius (28 to 23F). Driving conditions nice dry skies and little snow on the roads.

Average consumption: 23.7 kWh/100 km (38.1 kWh/100 mi), average speed: 82 km/h (51 mi/h).

2nd charging:
76.8 kWh/ 58 mins, battery temperature 18C/64.5F when started charging.

3rd leg:
257.4 km (160 mi), started with 96% SOC, arrived with 16%. Temperatures between -2 to -10 celcius (28 to 14 F). Driving conditions sames as in the 2nd leg.

Average consumption: 25.8 kWh/100 km (41.5kWh/100 mi), average speed: 72 km/h.

Scattered obervations along the way:

- Taycan is a fantastic, steady and reliable winter car, at least in terms of driving dynamics! Even with a bed of slush it kept pushing (and pulling = 4WD :D) safely and steadily. The low center of gravity works very well.

- Remember to switch to ”Normal” when passing other cars/changing lanes, so that you have 4WD all the time (Range keeps it in front wheels and sport/sport + in rear wheels - as a default). Yes, when the car starts to be a bit out of control or when pushing the accelerator, it divides the power to all fours, but that may be too late in winterly conditions!

- Switched aircon between ECO and ECO Plus (always set to 23C/73.5F) at the beginning with 100 km intervals, but in addition to freezing my a** off with ECO Plus, it didn´t had any significant impact on the range when the battery was heated from driving (approx. between 10 to 12C/50 to 54F throughout the journey, apart from pre-heating to charge, see next). Personal note: I didn´t spend this amount of money to be freezing in my car with down jacket and beanie on at winter, hence steady 23C... :D)

- I used the Charging Planner to pre-heat the battery when approaching the charging stations so the charging could be performed faster (see above and below).

- Both chargers were 225 kW (and in conjuction with Mc Donalds´ - I´m loving it 🥳), but in these temperatures, the max that I got out was somewhere round 175 kW (even with warm battery).

- I don´t waste my (or your) time talking about the Charging Planner, Navigation or other similar utterly useless Porsche Software ”features” in this thread.
(You can only guess whether those chargers I wanted to use could be found in Nav or not...)

- Used Plugshare and the Finnish equivalent (latauskartta.fi) instead. Anyway, it was not that tricky as we only have a handful of quick chargers outside the metropolitan area of Southern Finland.

- Parking, rain, speed limit, ACC [EDIT: Active Lane Keeping, not ACC] and what other sensors were out of the game pretty fast when sleet started to come down from the sky. - Hint: keep de-icing spray and microfiber wipes at hand in the car. I cleared the sensors when charging the 1st time and everything worked since then (dry weather, no more rain/sleet/snow). However, this happens to pretty much every car in wet conditions turning freezing, so Taycan is no different (better) here.

- Active cruise control (distance radar) sensor is heated and it remained in operation throughout the journey despite of heavy rain/sleet/snow. This sensor was something that froze every time (even with heating) in my G31 BMW, so no complaints here!

- All in all, and in comparison to X-drive 530d BMW, in terms of driving experience so far -after this trip and pretty much in every type of weather conditions we can encounter here in Finland- Taycan is definitely a superb winter car - but not with a clear margin.

- When preparing as an EV driver should (pre-heating cabin and battery, using ECO/Range modes, leaving sufficient marging between charges, using extra strong anti-freeze windshield liquids, not accelerating like a madman, not packing granny to the ski-box, etc.) Taycan can absolutely be used as a winter car in the land of Santa Claus (and maybe even by him :D).

Happy to answer any questions.

Drive fast but safe!

-A-

1E048BF7-ACF0-42CA-993E-AE81F129E93F.jpeg

B4F5FB39-90ED-4D35-BF57-52FDF5F11239.jpeg
 
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REIL

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Succinct. Amazingly wonderful and detailed synopsis of your trip.
Thank you for taking the time to compile your notes and observations.
 

Scandinavian

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@AxelC , great summary, thanks!

Quite impressive with the consumption you have achieved in these conditions.

You said you used PlugShare to find the chargers, which is good to know. since the chargers were not recognised in the Charging Planner, I have also assumed you could not use the Porsche Charging card etc. I guess you needed a separate app or dongle to activate the charge?

Lovely to see the winter picture of your 4s and the wheels look great!
 

AxelC

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@AxelC , great summary, thanks!

Quite impressive with the consumption you have achieved in these conditions.

You said you used PlugShare to find the chargers, which is good to know. since the chargers were not recognised in the Charging Planner, I have also assumed you could not use the Porsche Charging card etc. I guess you needed a separate app or dongle to activate the charge?

Lovely to see the winter picture of your 4s and the wheels look great!
[QUOTEYou said you used PlugShare to find the chargers, which is good to know. since the chargers were not recognised in the Charging Planner, I have also assumed you could not use the Porsche Charging card etc. I guess you needed a separate app or dongle to activate the charge?
[/QUOTE]
Y
@AxelC , great summary, thanks!

Quite impressive with the consumption you have achieved in these conditions.

You said you used PlugShare to find the chargers, which is good to know. since the chargers were not recognised in the Charging Planner, I have also assumed you could not use the Porsche Charging card etc. I guess you needed a separate app or dongle to activate the charge?

Lovely to see the winter picture of your 4s and the wheels look great!
Yes indeed - I have five (!) different rfid-tags and apps (not counting on apps only) from various Finnish charging service providers. Plus the Porsche Charging Card for Ionity. Although using Ionity app gives better pricing in Finland at least. 🙄
 

Doc B

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Happy New Year everyone! Hope that 2021 resolves both COVID-19 and Taycan crap software (two VERY different category of problems, have to admit... :D).

I promised to update how our road trip to Northern Finland for holidays went, so below some stats and observations:

Vehicle: Taycan 4S with Performance Battery+ (i.e. gross 93.4 kWh)

Tyres: Nokian Hakkapeliitta R3 (=no studs) 245/45R20 103R (Rear pair: XL) with 2.8 bars (40.6 psi) and wheels: Nitro Tourismo FF (20 spokes) = regular, not aero (see the attached pic).

Pax and cargo load: max 350 kg (skis went with our ICE Audi :whew:)

Driving mode(s): Continuously on Range.
Switched to Normal (=4WD and increased ground clearance because of snow) only when passing other cars - which I did quite a lot, have to admit... 😈

Total trip: 871.4 kilometers (541,5 miles), charging only twice (= three legs) with average consumption of 24.8 kWh/100 km (39.9 kWh / 100 mi) and average speed of 80 km/h (49.7 mile/h).

1st leg:
288.4 km (179.7 mi), started with 96% SOC, arrived with 14%. Temperatures varied between +2 to -2 Celsius (37 to 28F). Driving conditions started with moderate to heavy rain, then turned to slush/snow and ended with dry skies and dry snow/ice on roads.

Average consumption: 25.3 kWh/100 km (40.7kWh/100 mi), average speed 87 km/h (54mi/h).

1st charging:
79,5 kWh / 1hr 6 mins, battery temperature 20C/68F when started charging.

2nd leg:
325.6 km (202.3 mi), started with 97% SOC, arrived with 9%.
Temperatures between -2 to -5 celcius (28 to 23F). Driving conditions nice dry skies and little snow on the roads.

Average consumption: 23.7 kWh/100 km (38.1 kWh/100 mi), average speed: 82 km/h (51 mi/h).

2nd charging:
76.8 kWh/ 58 mins, battery temperature 18C/64.5F when started charging.

3rd leg:
257.4 km (160 mi), started with 96% SOC, arrived with 16%. Temperatures between -2 to -10 celcius (28 to 14 F). Driving conditions sames as in the 2nd leg.

Average consumption: 25.8 kWh/100 km (41.5kWh/100 mi), average speed: 72 km/h.

Scattered obervations along the way:

- Taycan is a fantastic, steady and reliable winter car, at least in terms of driving dynamics! Even with a bed of slush it kept pushing (and pulling = 4WD :D) safely and steadily. The low center of gravity works very well.

- Remember to switch to ”Normal” when passing other cars/changing lanes, so that you have 4WD all the time (Range keeps it in front wheels and sport/sport + in rear wheels - as a default). Yes, when the car starts to be a bit out of control or when pushing the accelerator, it divides the power to all fours, but that may be too late in winterly conditions!

- Switched aircon between ECO and ECO Plus (always set to 23C/73.5F) at the beginning with 100 km intervals, but in addition to freezing my a** off with ECO Plus, it didn´t had any significant impact on the range when the battery was heated from driving (approx. between 10 to 12C/50 to 54F throughout the journey, apart from pre-heating to charge, see next). Personal note: I didn´t spend this amount of money to be freezing in my car with down jacket and beanie on at winter, hence steady 23C... :D)

- I used the Charging Planner to pre-heat the battery when approaching the charging stations so the charging could be performed faster (see above and below).

- Both chargers were 225 kW (and in conjuction with Mc Donalds´ - I´m loving it 🥳), but in these temperatures, the max that I got out was somewhere round 175 kW (even with warm battery).

- I don´t waste my (or your) time talking about the Charging Planner, Navigation or other similar utterly useless Porsche Software ”features” in this thread.
(You can only guess whether those chargers I wanted to use could be found in Nav or not...)

- Used Plugshare and the Finnish equivalent (latauskartta.fi) instead. Anyway, it was not that tricky as we only have a handful of quick chargers outside the metropolitan area of Southern Finland.

- Parking, rain, speed limit, ACC [EDIT: Active Lane Keeping, not ACC] and what other sensors were out of the game pretty fast when sleet started to come down from the sky. - Hint: keep de-icing spray and microfiber wipes at hand in the car. I cleared the sensors when charging the 1st time and everything worked since then (dry weather, no more rain/sleet/snow). However, this happens to pretty much every car in wet conditions turning freezing, so Taycan is no different (better) here.

- Active cruise control (distance radar) sensor is heated and it remained in operation throughout the journey despite of heavy rain/sleet/snow. This sensor was something that froze every time (even with heating) in my G31 BMW, so no complaints here!

- All in all, and in comparison to X-drive 530d BMW, in terms of driving experience so far -after this trip and pretty much in every type of weather conditions we can encounter here in Finland- Taycan is definitely a superb winter car - but not with a clear margin.

- When preparing as an EV driver should (pre-heating cabin and battery, using ECO/Range modes, leaving sufficient marging between charges, using extra strong anti-freeze windshield liquids, not accelerating like a madman, not packing granny to the ski-box, etc.) Taycan can absolutely be used as a winter car in the land of Santa Claus (and maybe even by him :D).

Happy to answer any questions.

Drive fast but safe!

-A-

Thanks for posting, really helpful. Have to say I had no idea that normal mode is the only mode in which 4WD is the default, so that's definitely good to know with the snow approaching.

There's no way I'd get the consumption figures you have seen at those temperatures and at those speeds based upon my experiences to-date. Out of interest, don't suppose you know what the ball-park humidity was during your trip (although I am sure that is not something you religiously follow every day!)? I'm beginning to think humidity may be one of the key reasons why we seem to be seeing different cold weather range figures in different countries. In October / November when I started seeing a significant drop-off in range, the humidity was really high over here.
 

AxelC

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Didn’t record the humidity, but the Finnish Meteorological Institute does so. 😄

According to their website historical data, humidity was 96% at the time and location of the 1st charge and 89% at the second.
 

Doc B

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Didn’t record the humidity, but the Finnish Meteorological Institute does so. 😄

According to their website historical data, humidity was 96% at the time and location of the 1st charge and 89% at the second.
Thanks! Guess humidity doesn't explain things then, since it seems it was fairly high for you. Man, I certainly didn't pay s much attention to weather conditions before buying an EV!
 

OP
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[email protected]

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Back from another mountain trip, just thought I’d post a few snaps in case anyone contemplate visiting Norway in winter at one point in time (the virus does seem to be a stubborn one).
C173F64A-C958-4DF5-9BBB-009D78F613BB.jpeg
1F30F56F-0C7A-4415-B972-35A02EB1B5A5.jpeg
7474AF21-30C3-406C-B33C-7DE6B7EE7401.jpeg
65AC30C1-09A8-4829-A07E-5ECE4454F9B5.jpeg
CA97FB17-CE71-4754-92A4-E3B459E8CD91.jpeg

And for those old enough to remember; yes - this is close to where they shot parts of “The Empire Strikes Back” - also known as “Hoth” :)

Temperatures were around minus 12 to minus 22 celsius the whole trip. Charging was definitely impacted as it was very slow at the cabin with the Porsche “Emergency” Charger on 230v/6A (yeah, would be slow anyway - but _really_ slow this time), and also on the 150 kWh gas station chargers. This is most likely due to cold batteries and not being able to preheat them properly. The car doesn’t know about the charger, so I can’t find any easy way to program a preheat - and can’t be bothered with fiddling around with it anymore. I just hooked it up to a 50 kWh supermarket charger and went for a Nordic skiing trip for an hour. That, and the trickle charge at the cabin was enough for my return trip.

Halfway across the mountain all screens except the speedometer went black and dead for a few minutes (plenty of charge left). I guess it just felt like a nice place for a reboot. Can’t blame it.

The drive mode knob is mostly non functioning in the cold. Scheduled fix at the dealer in a few days. Apparently a whole day job.

And all the camera dependent gizmos are mostly out too; "dipped beam light", "parking assistance" etc. No worries.

Also window washer only working after a few hours of driving. My bad I guess, since I was out of the “extra strength” mix I made last time and had gone for the regular kind that’s supposed to work down to minus 25 - which it doesn’t on an EV anyways. And there was no way the Taycan was getting any of my Irish whiskey in the mix.

With temperatures being around minus 15 to 20C, the car really handles nicely. The non studded winter tires (Nokian Hakkapeliitta R3) has a nice and predictable grip, and it feels a lot better to do some “inspired” driving than in “warmer” weather (e.g. plus 3 to minus 5).

So once again, the car _drives_ beautifully, - I just have to ignore the little glitches and bugs that riddles the PCM components. I guess you just can’t have it all.... yet anyways.... :)
 
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Jancha

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Having spent about a month with a Taycan in cold environment (-22 .. +2) and most of the time car being outside and most of the time used for 10-20km trips, here are the stats for the consumption.

Consumption has gone down as the car got more miles onto it and as soon as I had a chance use heated garage.

CC8FE7B6-F115-46C8-89DA-8C3E30129A79.jpeg
 

Scandinavian

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Charging was definitely impacted as it was very slow at the cabin with the Porsche “Emergency” Charger on 230v/6A (yeah, would be slow anyway - but _really_ slow this time), and also on the 150 kWh gas station chargers.
Nice photos of the Norwegian nature. Looks fantastic.

I guess your charging would be extremely slow in these cold conditions. I do not have any idea on the actual battery chemistry in the Porsche battery, but suspect it wants to be considerable warmer that the outside temperature. I think if you measure the efficiency it would likely be less than 50% with the power supply trying to get some heat into the battery before it can charge. No idea on how the Porsche heats up the battery though.

I was sent this video about one of your Norwegian fellows that did some experiment on a Tesla M3 charging in the cold. The Taycan can have completely different BMS and Battery Chemistry, but Lithium batteries are quite similar in general.

Some good hints in there about going to a cabin in cold weather
- Try to charge at high power charger before arriving at cabin if possible
- Plug in straight away and try to charge when power is limited to 6 or 10 amps
- Charging will be very inefficient in general.

Explains a lot why charging is a problem in very cold weather.
 

MadsK

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Nice photos of the Norwegian nature. Looks fantastic.

I guess your charging would be extremely slow in these cold conditions. I do not have any idea on the actual battery chemistry in the Porsche battery, but suspect it wants to be considerable warmer that the outside temperature. I think if you measure the efficiency it would likely be less than 50% with the power supply trying to get some heat into the battery before it can charge. No idea on how the Porsche heats up the battery though.

I was sent this video about one of your Norwegian fellows that did some experiment on a Tesla M3 charging in the cold. The Taycan can have completely different BMS and Battery Chemistry, but Lithium batteries are quite similar in general.

Some good hints in there about going to a cabin in cold weather
- Try to charge at high power charger before arriving at cabin if possible
- Plug in straight away and try to charge when power is limited to 6 or 10 amps
- Charging will be very inefficient in general.

Explains a lot why charging is a problem in very cold weather.
I have done a few tests of charging a cold battery.
The charges are made with PMCC, 3 phase 240V, approximately 6.2 kW.
Test result form:
Test1​
Outside​
Battery​
Battery​
Energy​
Energy​
Energy​
Time h.min​
Temp C/F​
Temp C/F​
SOG %​
total​
Battery Heat​
Battery Charge​
Start​
1C/33.8F​
1C/34F​
38%​
0​
0​
0​
+0h 52min​
1C/33.8F​
13C/55.4F​
40%​
5,83kWt​
3,8kWt​
2kWt​
+1h 34min​
1C/33.8F​
14C/57.2F​
45%​
10,5kWt​
0,2kWt​
4,7kWt​
+2h 32min​
1C/33.8F​
14C/57.2F​
52%​
16,8kWt​
11,8kWt​
Test 2​
Outside​
Battery​
Battery​
Energy​
Energy​
Energy​
Time h.min​
Temp C/F​
Temp C/F​
SOG %​
total​
Battery Heat​
Battery Charge​
Start​
2C/35.6F​
2C/35.6F​
55%​
0​
0​
0​
+0h 54min​
2C/35.6F​
14C/57.2F​
57%​
5,91kWt​
3,9kWt​
2kWt​
+2h 01min​
2C/35.6F​
14C/57.2F​
75%​
13,2kWt​
0​
9,3kWt​

From the two tests I can conclude that Battery Manager first uses 100% of the charging current to heat the battery. Then 100% of the power is used to charge the battery.
 

Scandinavian

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That is interesting @MadsK . I see that you have quite a powerful charger though. I wonder what would happen if you dialled down the available power to only one third of this ie. 2.3 kW or so?
 

MadsK

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That is interesting @MadsK . I see that you have quite a powerful charger though. I wonder what would happen if you dialled down the available power to only one third of this ie. 2.3 kW or so?
Hi Peter. From the tests one can deduce:
By interpolation it is seen that the battery has reached the temperature 14C after approx. 40 min.
2. Approximately 4 kWt has been used to heat the battery.
It can be deduced from this that approximately 6 kW has been used to heat the battery during start-up.
The battery heater must therefore have a maximum power of at least 6 kW, but it may well be larger.
I will perform a few tests with lower power (about 2.3 kW) later and post the result here.
 

Doc B

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I have done a few tests of charging a cold battery.
The charges are made with PMCC, 3 phase 240V, approximately 6.2 kW.
Test result form:
Test1​
Outside​
Battery​
Battery​
Energy​
Energy​
Energy​
Time h.min​
Temp C/F​
Temp C/F​
SOG %​
total​
Battery Heat​
Battery Charge​
Start​
1C/33.8F​
1C/34F​
38%​
0​
0​
0​
+0h 52min​
1C/33.8F​
13C/55.4F​
40%​
5,83kWt​
3,8kWt​
2kWt​
+1h 34min​
1C/33.8F​
14C/57.2F​
45%​
10,5kWt​
0,2kWt​
4,7kWt​
+2h 32min​
1C/33.8F​
14C/57.2F​
52%​
16,8kWt​
11,8kWt​
Test 2​
Outside​
Battery​
Battery​
Energy​
Energy​
Energy​
Time h.min​
Temp C/F​
Temp C/F​
SOG %​
total​
Battery Heat​
Battery Charge​
Start​
2C/35.6F​
2C/35.6F​
55%​
0​
0​
0​
+0h 54min​
2C/35.6F​
14C/57.2F​
57%​
5,91kWt​
3,9kWt​
2kWt​
+2h 01min​
2C/35.6F​
14C/57.2F​
75%​
13,2kWt​
0​
9,3kWt​

From the two tests I can conclude that Battery Manager first uses 100% of the charging current to heat the battery. Then 100% of the power is used to charge the battery.
Thanks for posting this. That is super helpful, and I think explains a lot for those of us who have been complaining about an inability (or difficulty) in preheating the battery. Basically, you can't pre-heat the battery unless you are also charging at the same time (i.e. if you use a timer to pre-heat the cabin, it will only heat the battery if you are also using the timer to charge). Basically, the car does not care about maximising range, but, instead, cares more about maximising charge speed. It's a taker not a giver. So, if battery temperature is very low (1C above), then the charge will prioritise heating up the battery first. Once you get to a respectable level (14C above), the heating aspect stops, and any further heating is just the side effect of the battery getting warm when charging. That explains a lot for me, since I have a garage and the battery is rarely cooler than 10C - that means I find it really difficult to heat the battery up to, say, 20C prior to driving so that I have better range. If the battery were colder, I'd see more of a battery heating effect when charging. However, just wish there was a facility to plug the car in and heat the battery up to 20C or more without also having to charge the car...
 
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