Taycan Turbo S vs. Model S Plaid - really by this much!?

Tay-k

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people really need to give up on this - Tesla has moved beyond this problem with the 3/Y/Plaid - only the S/X have this issue.

so you’re going to bang on this issue for TEsla - but radio silence that my Taycan has the exact same behavior after several hot laps at Laguna and can not complete a full 20 minute DE session.

The plaid can do repeated launched with no battery thermal neutering.

also I’m really really glad we’re all driving cars from manufacuturers that can’t burtst into flames…

https://www.total911.com/porsche-reveal-cause-of-991-gt3-fires/
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30986407/porsche-taycan-ev-fire-garage-florida/

1) Please try and not be angry and stick to the data.

Tesla has not "moved beyond this problem with the 3/Y/Plaid" when just last week in drag race no.2 in this test in Spain, a Taycan 4S whipped the Tesla Model 3. Taycan whipped it slightly in race no.1 as well, race no.2 both drivers even said the motor just gave up/battery couldn't handle it on the Tesla Model 3. It's because lack of repeatability.

I'd even go on to say that after a 4th-5th 0-60 on the plaid, its best to exit the vehicle and take a bus home. I wouldn't trust the car after that shocking video of it almost killing the driver.

Proof:

2) Regarding the stationary Taycan "bursting into flames in a garage" - what is the likelihood that happened because of a fault in it's battery and wasn't instead some angry owner just looking to claim insurance, some arsonist or worse some jealous Tesla file setting fire to it?

Please show me 1 news story of a Taycan being driven and bursting into flames.
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GG77

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Anyone here actually driven this Plaid model? If so, what were your impressions re handling, cornering, body roll, suspension management etc? Curious to know on an objective and comparative basis.
 

Dee

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Did someone here actually try to put that 1000hp down on a normal street with street tires?
I sometimes have trouble putting all my 760 down with my 305/265 wide tires...
Why do you think a Tesla Model S Plaid won't have any problems on even narrower tires? (265/245 or something?).
Also, the Plaid's battery has to be conditioned, right?
Something to think about when you're at the traffic light and a Plaid stands beside you...
 
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Tsingtao

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The Plaid completely wipes the table with the Taycan Turbo S and EVERY other car on the road. It consistently runs 9.3 sec 1/4 mile at 150mph+. This car beats a $3MM Bugatti Veyron. Now, if I had spent $3MM to have the fastest car in the world, I might be a bit miffed if a $150K Tesla kicks my butt. Ha ha. :rock:

I don't fault Tesla one bit. They are one of the most innovative companies on the planet, and they are really pushing the limits in a variety of areas, and as a consequence, they have problems in those areas. They are also nowhere near the build or driving quality of a Porsche. But let's remember here that we probably wouldn't even be talking about the Taycan, much less own one, if Elon Musk hadn't started this company, against all odds, and made it successful.

There are all sorts of videos and test results that confirm the numbers above:

https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-model-s-plaid-vs-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-drag-race-is-not-even-close

Note the driver in the video is actually complaining about 'my head feels like it's going to explode' when going full throttle. Another important point is any drag strip that is NHRA certified is going to require a PARACHUTE for this car.:oops::CWL:

Tesla has definitely thrown the gauntlet, and we'll all be better off for it. :clap:
You make a great point about tesla, they are impressive innovators and we would likely not have the taycan but for tesla proving to the world that EV tech is indeed superior to ICE tech (unless you are into engine noise, exhaust notes, etc.). Going forward, almost every hack automaker will have massive speed on tap. Comparing cars based upon zero to sixty times will become an exercise in futility. In other words, speed will be a given (almost like power windows) and the men will need to separate themselves from the boys with design, build quality, handling, creature comforts, tech, after sale service, etc. etc. Viewed another way, would anyone on this forum even give a sh!t if a self-driving Dodge Challenger Hellcat EV with a 1.8 second 0-60 time arrived on the the market tomorrow? I seriously doubt it. "Zero to Sixty" was a fun game to play in the days of internal combustion, but it already seems passé.
 

manitou202

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It will be interesting to see if the 0-60 phenomenon with EV's is temporary.

Does the initial wave of EV's continue with absurd 0-60 times and horsepower? Where does this end? 2500hp sedans running around town? 3000hp Hummer EV pickups?

Rivian is about to release a pickup and three-row SUV with four motors and a 0-60 time of 3 seconds for less than $75k. 10-15 years ago that would be beat any supercar on the market. Why the hell does anyone need that in an off-road capable SUV / Truck?

These new vehicles are going to have acceleration that can't be backed up by proper handling and braking. My guess most automakers will eventually set a limit for 0-60 in the 3 second range for any high performance car, outside of supercars. They will move onto other aspects of performance like weight, handling, etc. Pretty much what Porsche has already done with their ICE vehicles.

I've said this before, but my Turbo S has almost gotten me in trouble with how fast it builds speed. I've had a few oh-sh!t moments. Thankfully they come with the biggest brakes on the market. This won't be the case with everything.

This also brings up an issue with teenagers. It's one thing to not let your teenager drive a Porsche, or supercar, but what about a three-row SUV? Isn't that supposed to be a family car? Not sure I want a 16-18 year old driving a massive SUV with a 0-60 time of 3 seconds. They are going to need a way to lock the horsepower at a reasonable level for young drivers.
 
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kreshi

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Other thing are insurance companies. Who is going to insure a 2000hp car that instantly flies across the road? Accidents are going to drive prices up, or even make insurance companies decline cars completely. Interesting times.
 

TycanNewHampshire

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@Tsingtao : passé, cliché, the list goes on....
to your point, we are rapidly approaching the limits of physics and soon the 0-60 times will all be the same and limited by the ability to put traction to the ground and the tire manufacturers will decide who has the fastest 0-60 times. I think Tesla knows this and this is why they want to put rocket-boosters on their cars as power to the wheels will be THE limiting factor to acceleration from a dead-stop to 60mph or 100mph.
So, when all things equal out, what is left.....
  • Fit and finish
  • Maneuverability / Cornering
  • Ride Quality and Experience
  • Braking
  • Interior Form, Function and Comfort
  • Ability to upgrade software over time

I think on all of those, except arguably the last, Porsche currently is the winner and believe they will be in the future as well.

The wild-card will be what will someone come out with as the 'it-' or 'x-factor'? We have seen autopilot/self-driving (needs regulatory approval), self-parking, autonomous summoning, rockets, rear-wheel steering and others.

Assuming the laws of physics holds true and the rate of improvement cycles continue and we agree that all premium auto-makers will reach the sub-2-second 0-60 time (which is basically at, or around, the limit of putting traction to the ground of a production vehicle), what would be the x-factor that would make it novel enough for you to choose a new vehicle? To me this is going the be the real conundrum in the industry moving forward. For me, the x-factor would be three things (I know these are not very 'novel' or 'sexy', but are what I am looking for):
1. Range and Speed of Charging: (all performance the same on 0-60, I want to remove all range-anxiety)
2. 60mph - 100mph times: (I want to be able to blow past a semi-truck that I am in the middle of when it comes into my lane and someone is behind me and I can't just 'lock up the brakes', as this gives me piece of mind that I will have three options to avoid the accident; breakdown lane, brake or accelerate).
3. Hedge Against Being Obsolete: I want to know that if I purchase the car, they will support and create upgraded software enhancements and those be pushed to me OTA, without an appointment and free of charge.

There will be a race to win market share, but at what cost? They still have to think about a long-term accretive cash-flow dilemma that they will have to balance with getting the first sale and keeping long-term customer value. So, if you sell a car that you advertise will be updated all the time, free of charge, through OTA updates, you reduce your customer base by extending the purchase life-cycle from about 2-3 years to 7-8 years! That is bad business. However, losing even more of a customer base to a competitor is even worse business! So, what will they do?

I can already see an entire auto-parts and repair industry going out of business or contracting tremendously over the years: no more fuel filters, oil filters, spark plugs, fuel and oil additives, alternators, turbo's, air filters, etc. Which will affect the bottom-line of your local Porsche dealer, who makes a good margin on service work! So, when you combine all of these, what does long-term accretive growth look like for the Automotive industry that is switching to EV's?

I may be wrong, but if I were them, I would take a SAAS type of sales model and switch over to a subscription pricing model. This way, you can offer the first 2-3 years of upgrades as a part of the 'warranty'. But then you need to think about how to extract the next purchase that you were use to getting from that customer that would have normally been looking to sell their car and purchase their next one. So, offer a subscription to the upgrades at a monthly premium. It reduces risk from a cash-flow perspective, becomes predictable and keeps them in your brand as a loyalist.

It will be a dilemma, as they will have to compete against others that may offer this free for the life of the vehicle, or an extra year? This is why I asked about the x-factor.....whatever happens, I think we will be in for a wild ride and this industry will not look the same in 3-years from now.....it can't if people switch to purchasing new cars at 2+yr*x the time interval and you remove the maintenance and service revenue that you were use to receiving.

Sorry for being long-winded, but let me know if you think differently or if you think I am way off and things will just keep going on 'as normal'.....I just don't see how it could when you start pulling out the balance sheets in 2 years time.
 

Mysta

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Honestly as big as the feats are in the Plaid - the new LR S is the value. It's incredibly quick and rather cheap. The price is much closer to it's interior comforts while having great range. When I had a Performance Model X I couldn't help but feel as good as it was - it just wasn't 'good' in it's price point. That's just subjective of course. I like fast cars but I feel like the 4S to where LR S is is a good spot to be in.
 

fullmetalbaal

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Other thing are insurance companies. Who is going to insure a 2000hp car that instantly flies across the road? Accidents are going to drive prices up, or even make insurance companies decline cars completely. Interesting times.
Well, Tesla has its own insurance in many US states. So there'd be at least one to provide coverage
I heard Porsche was considering following that as well, but maybe that was just rumors.
 

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Did someone here actually try to put that 1000hp down on a normal street with street tires?
I sometimes have trouble putting all my 760 down with my 305/265 wide tires...
Why do you think a Tesla Model S Plaid won't have any problems on even narrower tires? (265/245 or something?).
Also, the Plaid's battery has to be conditioned, right?
Something to think about when you're at the traffic light and a Plaid stands beside you...
Yes, I’ve seen several street racing videos. That car hooks on the street from a dig quite easily.

The battery does have to be conditioned, I am told 8 -15 minute for maximum performance. But Brooks (the dragtimes vlogger) showed the car in the first race launched without the conditioning and still won easily. When he conditioned it for the next races, it was even more of a beating.

There is no denying it that these Plaids will lay flat any and all street legal cars on Earth right now and props to Tesla for that. I still choose Taycan as there is NO denying the better driving experience and quality of the vehicle. Nothing wrong with respecting another vehicle being better in some aspect. There will always be a faster car sooner or later.
 

feye

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Tesla has its issues, but they do know how to build a damn fine EV powertrain
Really? Reading all this I am not convinced that they figured out how to make a battery with a BMS that can handle their oversized electric motors.
 

kruzmisl

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The Plaid completely wipes the table with the Taycan Turbo S and EVERY other car on the road. It consistently runs 9.3 sec 1/4 mile at 150mph+. This car beats a $3MM Bugatti Veyron. Now, if I had spent $3MM to have the fastest car in the world, I might be a bit miffed if a $150K Tesla kicks my butt. Ha ha. :rock:

I don't fault Tesla one bit. They are one of the most innovative companies on the planet, and they are really pushing the limits in a variety of areas, and as a consequence, they have problems in those areas. They are also nowhere near the build or driving quality of a Porsche. But let's remember here that we probably wouldn't even be talking about the Taycan, much less own one, if Elon Musk hadn't started this company, against all odds, and made it successful.

There are all sorts of videos and test results that confirm the numbers above:

https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-model-s-plaid-vs-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-drag-race-is-not-even-close

Note the driver in the video is actually complaining about 'my head feels like it's going to explode' when going full throttle. Another important point is any drag strip that is NHRA certified is going to require a PARACHUTE for this car.:oops::CWL:

Tesla has definitely thrown the gauntlet, and we'll all be better off for it. :clap:
 

manitou202

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I'm sure this was posted on the forum already, but the initial tests of the Rimac Nevera are mind boggling. Four motors, totaling almost 1900hp. When you break it down, the front motors only have 295hp each, and the rear each have 644hp. So while this car costs $2M, it's not a stretch to think a four motor configuration with similar horsepower will show up in sub $200k cars shortly. Add a second set of front and rear motors to the Turbo S and you're at 1500hp.

Just look at how much quicker the Nevera is compared to the Ferrari SF90.


As Car and Driver says, this really is a paradigm shift in performance.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36607982/2021-rimac-nevera-drive/

"It shouldn't be this easy to beat a Bugatti Chiron Sport in the quarter-mile. This level of acceleration should require more driver skill, some rare manual dexterity lacking in Joe Commuter. Admittedly, it's pretty easy to do a full-bore standing-start launch in a Chiron or any gas car that shifts gears for you. But the electric Rimac Nevera's acceleration and its physiological impact on you are so extraordinary that you feel it shouldn't be accessible to anyone able to afford the $2,400,000 price and brave enough to hold the accelerator down."
 

Tsingtao

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@Tsingtao : passé, cliché, the list goes on....
to your point, we are rapidly approaching the limits of physics and soon the 0-60 times will all be the same and limited by the ability to put traction to the ground and the tire manufacturers will decide who has the fastest 0-60 times. I think Tesla knows this and this is why they want to put rocket-boosters on their cars as power to the wheels will be THE limiting factor to acceleration from a dead-stop to 60mph or 100mph.
So, when all things equal out, what is left.....
  • Fit and finish
  • Maneuverability / Cornering
  • Ride Quality and Experience
  • Braking
  • Interior Form, Function and Comfort
  • Ability to upgrade software over time

I think on all of those, except arguably the last, Porsche currently is the winner and believe they will be in the future as well.

The wild-card will be what will someone come out with as the 'it-' or 'x-factor'? We have seen autopilot/self-driving (needs regulatory approval), self-parking, autonomous summoning, rockets, rear-wheel steering and others.

Assuming the laws of physics holds true and the rate of improvement cycles continue and we agree that all premium auto-makers will reach the sub-2-second 0-60 time (which is basically at, or around, the limit of putting traction to the ground of a production vehicle), what would be the x-factor that would make it novel enough for you to choose a new vehicle? To me this is going the be the real conundrum in the industry moving forward. For me, the x-factor would be three things (I know these are not very 'novel' or 'sexy', but are what I am looking for):
1. Range and Speed of Charging: (all performance the same on 0-60, I want to remove all range-anxiety)
2. 60mph - 100mph times: (I want to be able to blow past a semi-truck that I am in the middle of when it comes into my lane and someone is behind me and I can't just 'lock up the brakes', as this gives me piece of mind that I will have three options to avoid the accident; breakdown lane, brake or accelerate).
3. Hedge Against Being Obsolete: I want to know that if I purchase the car, they will support and create upgraded software enhancements and those be pushed to me OTA, without an appointment and free of charge.

There will be a race to win market share, but at what cost? They still have to think about a long-term accretive cash-flow dilemma that they will have to balance with getting the first sale and keeping long-term customer value. So, if you sell a car that you advertise will be updated all the time, free of charge, through OTA updates, you reduce your customer base by extending the purchase life-cycle from about 2-3 years to 7-8 years! That is bad business. However, losing even more of a customer base to a competitor is even worse business! So, what will they do?

I can already see an entire auto-parts and repair industry going out of business or contracting tremendously over the years: no more fuel filters, oil filters, spark plugs, fuel and oil additives, alternators, turbo's, air filters, etc. Which will affect the bottom-line of your local Porsche dealer, who makes a good margin on service work! So, when you combine all of these, what does long-term accretive growth look like for the Automotive industry that is switching to EV's?

I may be wrong, but if I were them, I would take a SAAS type of sales model and switch over to a subscription pricing model. This way, you can offer the first 2-3 years of upgrades as a part of the 'warranty'. But then you need to think about how to extract the next purchase that you were use to getting from that customer that would have normally been looking to sell their car and purchase their next one. So, offer a subscription to the upgrades at a monthly premium. It reduces risk from a cash-flow perspective, becomes predictable and keeps them in your brand as a loyalist.

It will be a dilemma, as they will have to compete against others that may offer this free for the life of the vehicle, or an extra year? This is why I asked about the x-factor.....whatever happens, I think we will be in for a wild ride and this industry will not look the same in 3-years from now.....it can't if people switch to purchasing new cars at 2+yr*x the time interval and you remove the maintenance and service revenue that you were use to receiving.

Sorry for being long-winded, but let me know if you think differently or if you think I am way off and things will just keep going on 'as normal'.....I just don't see how it could when you start pulling out the balance sheets in 2 years time.
I agree with everything you wrote, especially your thoughts on the SAAS sales model analogy and that the auto industry is in for a wild ride in the next few years. I also think that Porsche could come out smelling like a rose if the industry goes the way I think it will go.

My thoughts are that some enterprising young lads at places like Apple, Google and even Amazon are already on the cusp of reinventing/disrupting the auto industry as we know it. For sure Tesla mildly disrupted the auto industry in terms of propulsion systems, but so far it is really the same old same old business model with a little OTA software updates/subscriptions thrown in for good measure. If I had unlimited financial resources (like Google, Apple, Amazon etc.) and proper motivation (as in shareholders who always want more growth and more profit) I would relieve the likes of GM, Toyota and VW of their fortunes with a pure CAAS/AMR (cars as a subscription/automated mobile robot) business model. The auto industry at present epitomizes waste and inefficiency in terms of asset utilization. That is, manufacturers sell expensive assets to consumers who utilize the assets, on average, less than 5% of the day. With a CAAS/AMR model (assuming AI and machine learning finally make full self driving viable and safe) a tech based transportation service provider could utilize the same asset, I'm guessing, somewhere north of 70% of the time. Then it is game over for most legacy auto makers, with those who hang on being reduced to contract manufacturers for the transportation providers. In other words, the model would resemble a highly specialized fleet of self-driving Ubers. When the fleet was not busy shuttling kids to school, adults to work, etc. it would be busy delivering mail, groceries, FedEx packages, etc.

I think that most of us would very much like to subscribe to a 100% reliable transportation service whereby a self-driving auto, with the interior appointments of a Maybach, would deliver us to and from work, restaurants, meetings, etc. in utmost comfort; but most of us would still want to own at least one vehicle for fun and/or utility and/or privacy. And that is where the likes of Porsche and other niche players could thrive.

But then again, maybe I am just fantasizing about some subjectively utopian future of transportation! Time will tell.
 

Dee

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I'm sure this was posted on the forum already, but the initial tests of the Rimac Nevera are mind boggling. Four motors, totaling almost 1900hp. When you break it down, the front motors only have 295hp each, and the rear each have 644hp. So while this car costs $2M, it's not a stretch to think a four motor configuration with similar horsepower will show up in sub $200k cars shortly. Add a second set of front and rear motors to the Turbo S and you're at 1500hp.

Just look at how much quicker the Nevera is compared to the Ferrari SF90.


As Car and Driver says, this really is a paradigm shift in performance.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36607982/2021-rimac-nevera-drive/

"It shouldn't be this easy to beat a Bugatti Chiron Sport in the quarter-mile. This level of acceleration should require more driver skill, some rare manual dexterity lacking in Joe Commuter. Admittedly, it's pretty easy to do a full-bore standing-start launch in a Chiron or any gas car that shifts gears for you. But the electric Rimac Nevera's acceleration and its physiological impact on you are so extraordinary that you feel it shouldn't be accessible to anyone able to afford the $2,400,000 price and brave enough to hold the accelerator down."
Well, beating a Taycan Turbo S at €200K by a Tesla Plaid at €140K is kinda painfull (not really but just to express the contradiction here).
But beaten by a Rimac Nevera at €2M is ok.
Maybe that's where it hurts.
Whatever happens next in Zuffenhausen, we are living in great times again!
 
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