GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design)

[daveo4EV]

Given CCS over NACS, does that change your assessment of the port swap viability?

expand - what do you mean by "port swap"?

NOTE: if you mean taking my 2020 Taycan and swapping the existing CCS1 port for a NACS port on the passenger side - I would still estimate 0% chance - while fast charging is still CCS "electrically/standards/protocol" wise - NACS still demands hardware changes on the vehicle to support "de-multiplexing" the high voltage input wires - since w/NACS the two high voltage wires can carry either AC power _OR_ DC power depending on what type of charger the vehicle is plugged into - the onboard AC charger and the onboard DC booster are two separate devices "feeding" the battery - all vendors will need to redesign their existing onboard charger(s) and wire harness…it's a straight forward EE problem and given Ford/GM's asserition they they will have native NACS vehicles by 2025 that would also indicated parts are in the supply chain to allow this to happen - but it's still a "redesign"…

$100 has been suggested as the retail price for any sort of Adapter for existing CCS1 vehicle's to "access" a NACS charger - that means the adapter is trivial and almost 'free' cost wise in terms of parts, design, complexity - there is nothing you can do to a Porsche vehicle that requires any sort of part swap with a dealer tech service for $100 - adapter will be the path forward for CCS1 vehicle's to access NACS based chargers - the good (confirmed) news however is there will be NO FURTHER modifications required for the vehicle to interoperate with any future NACS equipped CCS based chargers…(EA, EVGo, ChargePoint, Blink, etc…)

access to the Supercharger network is also "compatible" given that the North American supercharger network is/will-be effectively "bi-lingual" - talking Native Superchargter-canbus protocol to Tesla's - or CCS DIN/ISO/CCS to all other vehicles - _BUT_ it will required "authorization" like Ford/GM have negotiated…

Now Tesla/Elon could unilaterially remove the authorization requirement to allow more than just Tesla/Ford/GM access to their network - but that is a business/policy decision - not a technical standards issue…

even existing CCS based charging networks today have authorization requirements for electrically compatible charging stations. Rivian's CCS based charging network only allows rivians, Porsche's dealer installed CCS chargers only allow Porsche's and beyond that, only dealer approved Porsche's not even the "general public Taycan owners"...

CCS1 is dead - long live CCS! but in the form of a better designed NACS connector with trivial adapters for "legacy" CCS1 based vehicles.

there is no need for VW/Audi/Porsche to switch to NACS - they could use an adapter forever - but after a certain amount of time it will just be a "bad" look for them not to come along to the party.

question that is interesting to me: Do you swap your Hybrid (non-DC fast charging) vehicles from J-1772 to NACS? We'll see - Ford/GM have said "yes" because they do not have dual charging ports on the vehicle…NACS to J-1772 is well supported and adatpers are already freely available (TEslaTap and the Tesla J-1772 dongle they provided with each vehicle)…

Porsche could go with - J-1772 on the Driver's side (AC charging only) and NACS on passenger side AC _OR_ DC-Fast/CCS charging on the passenger side - it would be fairly clean as a redesign…

a passenger side NACS Taycan could optionally use the existing $175 CCS adapter for legacy charging stalls that still have a CCS1 connector - no software/protocol changes required. still need to resdeign the wireharness and "input" from the passenger-side NACS port to be able to de-mux the AC/DC high voltage "in software" based on type of charger currently in use - but it's a clean redesign…

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[simcity]

How do you guys over there feel about the fact that Tesla is a 400V provider by default and as Taycan owners you can’t leverage the capability that an 800v architecture gives you?

Is it a material consideration in your minds or do the “other” benefits of NACS outweigh it?

(I do realise that NACS will support up to 1000V - but not on Superchargers for the foreseeable…will see I guess)

 

[DerekS]

How do you guys over there feel about the fact that Tesla is a 400V provider by default and as Taycan owners you can’t leverage the capability that an 800v architecture gives you?

Is it a material consideration in your minds or do the “other” benefits of NACS outweigh it?

(I do realise that NACS will support up to 1000V - but not on Superchargers for the foreseeable…will see I guess)

I do not want to sacrifice my 800v 270kW charging speed.

I think Supercharger v3 or v4 can support it?

 

[simcity]

I do not want to sacrifice my 800v 270kW charging speed.

I think Supercharger v3 or v4 can support it?

V4 tombstone are apparently rated for it - but the cabinets which provide the go go juice are still only 400/500v capable, just like all previous generations.

Maybe they’ll do something when the CT eventually hits the roads…?

 

[DerekS]

V4 tombstone are apparently rated for it - but the cabinets which provide the go go juice are still only 400/500v capable, just like all previous generations.

Maybe they’ll do something when the CT eventually hits the roads…?

Weak. So 150kW with the buy-up option, 50kW without.

Looks like Electrocute America remains in my future.

 

[daveo4EV]

How do you guys over there feel about the fact that Tesla is a 400V provider by default and as Taycan owners you can’t leverage the capability that an 800v architecture gives you?

Is it a material consideration in your minds or do the “other” benefits of NACS outweigh it?

(I do realise that NACS will support up to 1000V - but not on Superchargers for the foreseeable…will see I guess)

I'm fine with it for the following reasons:

• CCS network operators over here rarely delivery even 150 kW charge rate - so the 270 kW is more theory than practice
• Superchargers in North America are so much more reliable and larger stall count that I'll take a reliable and available solid 150 kW vs. a broken 350 kW charging stall any day of the week
• 350 kW stations are fractional - with many EA sites having at most 2 350 kW stations and the rest are 150 kW anyways
  • 350 kW stations also rarely deliver more than 150 kW
• beggars can't be choosers - arrival at an EA CCS site rarely (never?) has all the stalls operational - so if there are 3 or 4 stalls and one or two of them are "unavailable" you use what is functional - you don't have the luxury of using a 350 kW charger if it's offline
  • FACT: will be going to thunderhill raceway this week with PCA GGR - fun fun fun - will drive my Taycan to the location in Willows, Ca - near by Wallmart has 4 EA CCS stalls - according to plugshare right now - recent check ins show that stalls 1 & 4 are "unavailable" and only stalls 2 & 3 are functional - I'll use what's functional - which will be the 150 kW stalls - the lone 350 kW stall (#4) according to plugshare is "offline" and has been since at least June 16th.
• I have better luck with EA 150 kW stations than their 350 kW stations - i often times get 175 kW from an EA 150 kW stations until about 60% SOC
• the hard math and facts of the matter is that ideal 350/270 kW charge curve is only 6-7 minutes faster than ideal 150 kW charge curve - once I've stopped for 20 minutes hanging around for another 6-7 minutes is no big deal
  • I get the ideal 150 kW curve way way more often across a wider range of battery temps and SOC than I do the the ideal curve for 270 kW
  • 150 kW ideal curve is easier to "achieve" from both a battery SOC/thermal profile and a station reliability profile
  • there is a wider operating envelope for a 150 kW charge curve that will more often "match" battery and environmental conditions
  • see this post for Porsche's published "chart" https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...my-taycan-charge-as-fast-as-i-want-it-to.779/
    • the 150 kW charge rate has a very very wide operating envelope vs. the 270 kW charge rate
  • the car, battery and charging station are more likely to "be in the zone" to achieve a sustained 150 kW charge rate vs. a sustained taper limited 270 kW charge rate.

give me a solid/reliable 150 kW charge rate and honestly I don't care if it's 400V/800V - and frankly neither should anyone else - it's an engineering detail that should have never bubbled to the surface, and frankly is a bit like 5G - more promise than actual visible/customer improvement - it's technically better I understand that (just like 5G) - but I'm hard pressed to see any actual tangible benefits that bubble up to the actual product or it's daily use in practice after 3 years of ownership - the advantages of 800V are completely invisible to me any practical outcome vs. my experienc with 400V vehicles (including the Audi eTron SUV which is one of the fast charging EV's on the market due to it's excellent 150 kW charging taper curve).

solid and reliable 150 kW fast charging means 30 min or less - which is what I've actually seen at superchargers w/MagicDock
solid an reliable 270 kW fast charging means 24 min or less - which I _RARELY_ achieve at any CCS fast charger in North America - often times >90% the 800V CCS charger is no faster than the 400V supercharger

I shrug my shoulders at the effecctive/practical difference…and feel most people will have the exact same experience.

What does matter is:

• is the station actually operational?
• can I start the session in less time than it will take to actually charge my vehicle
• is the station and battery ready to accept an optimal charge rate
• is the station not throttled to some slower rate than ideal

the answers to the above questions are far more important than any theory about 800V vs. 400V

 

[simcity]

I'm fine with it for the following reasons:

• CCS network operators over here rarely delivery even 150 kW charge rate - so the 270 kW is more theory than practice
• Superchargers in North America are so much more reliable and larger stall count that I'll take a reliable and available solid 150 kW vs. a broken 350 kW charging stall any day of the week
• 350 kW stations are fractional - with many EA sites having at most 2 350 kW stations and the rest are 150 kW anyways
  • 350 kW stations also rarely deliver more than 150 kW
• I have better luck with EA 150 kW stations than their 350 kW stations - i often times get 175 kW from an EA 150 kW stations until about 60% SOC
• the hard math and facts of the matter is that ideal 350/270 kW charge curve is only 6-7 minutes faster than ideal 150 kW charge curve - once I've stopped for 20 minutes hanging around for another 6-7 minutes is no big deal
  • I get the ideal 150 kW curve way way more often across a wider range of battery temps and SOC than I do the the ideal curve for 270 kW
  • 150 kW ideal curve is easier to "achieve" from both a battery SOC/thermal profile and a station reliability profile
  • there is a wider operating envelope for a 150 kW charge curve that will more often "match" battery and environmental conditions
  • see this post for Porsche's published "chart" https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...my-taycan-charge-as-fast-as-i-want-it-to.779/
    • the 150 kW charge rate has a very very wide operating envelope vs. the 270 kW charge rate
  • the car, battery and charging station are more likely to "be in the zone" to achieve a sustained 150 kW charge rate vs. a sustained taper limited 270 kW charge rate.

give me a solid/reliable 150 kW charge rate and honestly I don't care if it's 400V/800V - and frankly neither should anyone else - it's an engineering detail that should have never bubbled to the surface, and frankly is a bit like 5G - more promise than actual visible/customer improvement - it's technically better I understand that (just like 5G) - but I'm hard pressed to see any actual tangible benefits that bubble up to the actual product or it's daily use in practice after 3 years of ownership - the advantages of 800V are completely invisible to me any practical outcome vs. my experienc with 400V vehicles (including the Audi eTron SUV which is one of the fast charging EV's on the market due to it's excellent 150 kW charging taper curve).

solid and reliable 150 kW fast charging means 30 min or less - which is what I've actually seen at superchargers w/MagicDock
solid an reliable 270 kW fast charging means 24 min or less - which I _RARELY_ achieve at any CCS fast charger in North America - often times >90% the 800V CCS charger is no faster than the 400V supercharger

I shrug my shoulders at the effecctive/practical difference…and feel most people will have the exact same experience.

What does matter is:

• is the station actually operational?
• can I start the session in less time than it will take to actually charge my vehicle
• is the station and battery ready to accept an optimal charge rate
• is the station not throttled to some slower rate than ideal

the answers to the above questions are far more important than any theory about 800V vs. 400V

…Thanks for the feedback.

Would make a ton of sense for Porsche NA to provide cars in your market with the 150 kW / 400V option by default given what’s transpired in the last few weeks. The connector on the car might take a bit more wrangling.

 

[Scandinavian]

150 kW ideal curve is easier to "achieve" from both a battery SOC/thermal profile and a station reliability profile

Getting 150 kW reliably certainly is much better than what the US is experiencing. And also Tesla chargers normally count 4 to 5 times s many, if not even more.

Only caveat I would have is the experience with the 150 kW option. I have seen quite a bit of losses in that conversion and not reliably seen more than 135 kW. Still very decent and no issues.

 

[daveo4EV]

I do not want to sacrifice my 800v 270kW charging speed.

I think Supercharger v3 or v4 can support it?

honestly I'll bet Tesla rolls out 800V support with V4 before EA can clean up their act…

If I had to bet on one or the other I'll bet on Tesla supporting 800V charging at V4 (and maybe V3) stations at some point in the near future (less than 4 years being my definition of near future)

vs. EA having more stalls, functional stalls, and non-broken stalls, no activation issues - or even delivering more than 150 kW.

 

[charliemathilde]

I use a lot of 350kW stations at EA, and they almost never deliver more than 160-175 effective.

 

[DRR]

Volvo just joined the party at the Tesla superchargers. I'm writing this as I sit at an EA station for 20 minutes going from 45% to 85% maxing out at 96kw. Four chargers here with several "not available." Come on VW/Porsche follow daveo4EV reasonable request for the three AAA's (Access to Tesla Superchargers, an Adapter for our Taycans, and an App to make it work.

 

[tigerbalm]

Industry standards body SAE to adopt Tesla's charging connector system

https://seekingalpha.com/news/39832...sae-to-adopt-teslas-charging-connector-system

 

[simcity]

I'll see you on that bet ??

I reckon Polestar/Volvo will shift first as Geely aren't stupid and see the writing on the wall. What vested interest do they have in CCS-anything? None.

BMW are one the German-sway and will behave more like VAG/Porsche/Merc etc, they are more intertwined into the whole CCS thing. So I reckon they'll wait and wait a bit more.

https://www.media.volvocars.com/glo...la-superchargers-across-the-united-states-can

Winnings gladly accepted in virtual beer ? ?

 

[whitex]

Industry standards body SAE to adopt Tesla's charging connector system

https://seekingalpha.com/news/39832...sae-to-adopt-teslas-charging-connector-system

J1772 plug royalties pool is about to dry out. I could never figure out exactly who collects the J1772 plug royalties, but perhaps it was SAE? Maybe they now want to collect some royalties for NACS standard?

 

[DRR]

I sent a version of the letter Daveo4EV penned on this topic to the President of PCNA who by the way resigned today. I copied the GM at my dealer who responded in an email:
“At the Porsche dealer meeting last week Taycan charging infrastructure was a big topic. Porsche said in the next 6 months 99% of all public chargers(excluding Tesla chargers) will be in the Porsche system and on the app. This includes Chargepoint, EVGO.”
I responded that app access vs a card won’t resolve the CCS reliability and availability issues. Hope the new PCNA President understands this.

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